Ep 146 Binge Drinking: How to Recognize a Problem Before It Gets Worse

00:00:00: Oh my God, alcohol can do this anytime." You don't have to drink

00:00:04: every day for it to wreck your life or potentially wreck your life.

00:00:10: Hi, and welcome to Lead Well!

00:00:16: My guest today is Colleen Clifford, a commercial fisherwoman, author,

00:00:22: and advocate for binge drinking awareness and suicide prevention.

00:00:26: In your book, Colleen, Life Beyond the Binge: A Commercial Fisherwoman's

00:00:31: Journey Home, you share your experience of drinking, losing your

00:00:35: husband to suicide, and finding your way through grief and change.

00:00:40: And today we'll talk about recognizing patterns we've come

00:00:43: to see as normal, being honest about what they're costing us, and

00:00:47: finding the courage to ask for help.

00:00:50: Colleen, welcome to Lead Well.

00:00:53: Well, thank you for having me, Christine.

00:00:56: Sure.

00:00:56: So my first question is about commercial fishing, because it's a role that most of

00:01:02: us are probably not very familiar with.

00:01:05: So what does this life look like for you, and where does drinking fit into that?

00:01:12: Okay, so I'll start with the second part of that question.

00:01:16: I am a college dropout due to my binge drinking habit, and so-- and we'll talk

00:01:23: about that later, but so I fell, I became a college dropout, needed a job, and I

00:01:28: fell into commercial fishing about 1987.

00:01:31: So commercial fishing, a lot of people didn't know what it was even back then.

00:01:35: They still don't really now.

00:01:36: But so basically, we're floating around in the Bering Sea, which

00:01:41: is up by Alaska and Russia.

00:01:43: We actually oftentimes we're by the Russia border, the water border line.

00:01:48: So we're way out there in the ocean, and we catch pollock.

00:01:52: And so I'm on a factory processor, which is a very big ship.

00:01:56: I actually cook on the boat.

00:01:58: I'm in charge of the food and the housekeeping 'cause we

00:02:02: have people that clean the boat and the rooms and do laundry.

00:02:05: And then so it's contractual, so I may be gone a month to two months to three.

00:02:12: And so it's a lot of, you know, you work hard, and then basically you play hard.

00:02:16: Like, I'm on vacation now until February.

00:02:19: And so yeah, it's a, it's a lifestyle a lot of people really… I, for

00:02:23: me, it was a way to escape, which I didn't realize at the time, but after

00:02:27: writing my book, I realized it was a great escape for me from reality.

00:02:31: But it's also a great, you know, for people who don't have a college education

00:02:35: or even if you do, it's still a great job.

00:02:38: It pays well and you get, you know, you, you're gone.

00:02:41: Nobody really notices you're gone.

00:02:43: I hate to say that, but life just kinda moves on.

00:02:46: Your family might miss you and what have you, but it's funny because

00:02:49: I could be gone three months, and I call a friend and, "Oh, hey, you

00:02:53: just-- seems like you just left." I'm like, "Uh, not to me, but yeah

00:02:57: I'm back.

00:02:58: You wanna have coffee?" You know, that kind of thing.

00:03:00: So life just moves on without you.

00:03:02: You really get that sense of, um, what- .. it might be like when I die, you know?

00:03:07: It's just like life just keeps moving.

00:03:08: Yeah.

00:03:10: Sounds like I, I once used to work with a coaching client and he was, or he is

00:03:15: staff captain on a, on a cruise ship.

00:03:18: So that, that lifestyle sounds very similar to what he described.

00:03:23: Mm. Yes.

00:03:25: Yeah, because you're transported out of reality on land.

00:03:29: And you're, you're working… It's kinda weird 'cause we're, like,

00:03:32: in a capsulated community, like a little city inside the ship.

00:03:37: We have, you know, the galley where we eat.

00:03:39: We have, you know, it's functioning.

00:03:41: We have our engine department, the wheelhouse, the everything, and you're,

00:03:45: you're there together for months.

00:03:48: You don't get out of that space, and then you go home, and there's

00:03:51: an adjustment period, for sure.

00:03:54: Because

00:03:55: reality- It's almost like you're, you're having two kind of

00:03:58: societies, two kind of environments-

00:04:01: to live in.

00:04:03: Mm. And now you said you dropped out of college because of your binge drinking.

00:04:09: So at that time, were you already aware that alcohol was really an issue for

00:04:15: you, or do you think that was… Do, did you think that was a normal behavior?

00:04:23: Yeah.

00:04:23: This is in the '80s, and so in the United States, partying, especially

00:04:28: in college, was quite common.

00:04:30: And so I was clueless.

00:04:32: I was just doing what everybody else was doing.

00:04:34: Well, it… within my group.

00:04:35: I mean, I'm sure there were people who weren't drinking, but the group of

00:04:39: people I hung out with were drinkers.

00:04:41: And so I wasn't doing anything that anybody else wasn't doing, and

00:04:46: so I didn't think of it as being problematic, and, which is interesting,

00:04:51: but that's kind of denial, I guess.

00:04:55: That's part of the denial.

00:04:56: And so the fishing helped me continue that denial because we don't drink on the boat.

00:05:02: On the vessel, there's no alcohol or drugs.

00:05:05: There's zero tolerance.

00:05:06: And so, you know, I'd be partying.

00:05:08: We used to call it the floating rehab back in our earlier days because we would…

00:05:13: everyone really would party really hard when they were home on vacation and then

00:05:18: get back on the boat and kinda dry out.

00:05:20: And so back in those days, I used to work longer contracts, sometimes

00:05:24: five months, so I could tell myself I didn't have a problem.

00:05:28: Yeah.

00:05:29: And so what was it that… I mean, I get it because I never was into alcohol, and

00:05:34: sometimes it's really difficult because people around you, they don't get it.

00:05:38: They were offering me wine and beer and everything, so I, I

00:05:42: totally get it that it, it feels normal to, to kind of be drinking.

00:05:47: But when, when you think about yourself, why did you feel you had to drink?

00:05:52: What did you get from alcohol, or what were you hoping to get from it?

00:05:57: Yeah, that's interesting.

00:05:58: So you're lucky you weren't … You were one of the smarter ones.

00:06:01: So yeah, what I discovered 40 years later when I wrote the book is that at 19 an

00:06:07: experience happen to me that created a lot of shame, tremendous amount of shame,

00:06:11: and I buried it, and I created a story that I was unlovable, and that I would

00:06:16: never talk about what happened to me.

00:06:17: And so I look back now at my binge drinking, and it was like, especially

00:06:22: in my 20s, because I was really partying hard, and did some reckless things.

00:06:27: I should be dead a number of times, and I'm not.

00:06:29: But yet I still didn't connect the two.

00:06:32: But I think because I buried it so deep in my subconscious, I was

00:06:36: just making choices to reinforce my belief that I, I was unlovable.

00:06:42: Without, without realizing it.

00:06:43: It was subconscious.

00:06:45: And as I aged and, you know, when you hit your 30s, my friends started

00:06:51: having kids, getting married, and they weren't partying as much.

00:06:54: I was the only one not married and with children because I was never

00:06:58: going to get married or have children because of what happened to me.

00:07:01: And so, you know, with no one to really party with, it's hard to continue that.

00:07:06: I mean, uh, still at that time I would sometimes go to bars by

00:07:09: myself and what have you, but, you know, it's just, uh, you just kinda

00:07:15: slow down hopefully as you age.

00:07:18: So, so was it a slowing down that came with age or was it a point

00:07:23: where you realized, well, that this kind of drinking needed to

00:07:29: change or you wanted to change it?

00:07:32: So, so was it more like your own realization or was it fading out

00:07:37: because there was no opportunity?

00:07:40: I love your questions, especially since you're not a drinker it sounds

00:07:44: like, so these are great questions.

00:07:46: So what happened with the binge drinking, I should define it.

00:07:49: It's four or more drinks for a woman or five or more drinks,

00:07:52: and it's the measured alcohol.

00:07:54: It's not like a glass of wine, 'cause a glass of wine's really two

00:07:57: measured drinks, in one occasion, and so we call that partying.

00:08:01: And a lot of people can do that.

00:08:02: Like it's one bottle of wine is a binge drinking incident.

00:08:06: And so as I aged, I started slowing down, but the way I like to describe

00:08:10: what happened to me because it was a one instant that happened when I

00:08:16: was binge drinking when I was 58.

00:08:18: I'm 63 now.

00:08:19: So what, what I like to describe is there's like 95% of my drinking

00:08:24: life I, I was under control.

00:08:26: I could manage it.

00:08:28: But as a binge drinker, there's 5%, and that's when sometimes I would

00:08:33: over drink, like maybe have four drinks, and that's a binge incident.

00:08:38: But nothing bad would happen.

00:08:39: I might wake up with a hangover, but nothing…

00:08:42: So I call it there's a wild card when you're partying.

00:08:45: And it can be once every 10 years.

00:08:47: It could be someone who the first time they drink they party and that

00:08:51: wild card pops up, and that's when you do something out of character.

00:08:55: You drive home drunk, are in a accident, you know, just something

00:08:59: that happens that you can't repeat.

00:09:02: You can't do a replay in that drunken state.

00:09:05: And so for me, I had my drinking under control I thought, right?

00:09:09: For years, 'cause I'm 63.

00:09:11: So in my 50s people I hang out with, nobody really drinks.

00:09:14: We're in bed by 8:30, right?

00:09:16: So I had gone to a party in the afternoon to my friend's and I And the alcohol took

00:09:24: over 'cause alcohol does hijack the brain.

00:09:26: It's addictive.

00:09:27: And I had a binge drinking.

00:09:29: I don't even remember how much I drank, but I drove home drunk.

00:09:32: And I share this because it still happens in the world.

00:09:37: People are still drinking and driving.

00:09:39: But I woke up the next day and I realized how lucky I was that I

00:09:43: didn't kill anyone, I didn't get a ticket or anything, that I needed.

00:09:47: And that I was so shocked that that happened at my age.

00:09:50: Like I haven't drank like that in years.

00:09:52: And I thought, "Oh my God, alcohol can do this anytime." You don't have to

00:09:57: drink every day for it to wreck your life or potentially wreck your life.

00:10:02: And so that's when I decided get rid of it, and that was five years ago.

00:10:09: Okay.

00:10:09: Yeah, I think, I think that that was the one thing that kind of kept me

00:10:13: from drinking from the very beginning because I had people around me who

00:10:17: would not remember what they were doing the day before, and I'm like,

00:10:21: "Okay, I, I don't want that to happen to me." So I think that was my reason

00:10:26: for really staying away from it.

00:10:28: And, and I was into eating, so I'm… I was bulimic when I was younger, so I

00:10:33: had a different kind of, abuse, I guess.

00:10:36: So- Of there are

00:10:38: coping, right?

00:10:39: Coping mechanism, yeah.

00:10:41: Yeah.

00:10:41: Yeah.

00:10:42: Well, the, the, the not remembering is a, is a huge sign if anyone

00:10:47: listening is not remembering what they did the day before from drinking.

00:10:51: I mean, that's basically your brain has had too much alcohol,

00:10:56: and it starts shutting down your memory center to keep you alive.

00:11:00: So basically, if you're blacking out, that means you're really overdoing

00:11:05: it, and it might be worth, like, asking yourself how's it working.

00:11:10: Is the drinking really working for you?

00:11:11: Is that something you wanna keep doing?

00:11:13: And how can we be honest with ourselves about the drinking, and also the eating

00:11:18: in my case, without beating ourselves up?

00:11:21: Because that comes almost automatically.

00:11:25: Yeah.

00:11:26: That shame is really a dark place.

00:11:29: I, I would say that, you know, try to tell yourself that we all have ways of coping.

00:11:36: It's human nature.

00:11:37: Of avoiding feelings that make us uncomfortable, right?

00:11:40: It's just kinda human nature.

00:11:42: We don't wanna feel bad.

00:11:43: And so whatever way you're coping, that's just, that's just a habit or something

00:11:47: that gives you relief from feeling those other feelings you don't wanna feel.

00:11:53: And know that there's other people in the world doing the same thing.

00:11:56: It… whether it's bulimia, alcoholism, binge drinking, scrolling sex,

00:12:02: porn, there's other people doing it.

00:12:05: And so if it's a behavior you wanna stop, I just really, just really encourage you

00:12:12: to find your group of people who have the same coping behavior, because you

00:12:19: can join that group and you will not feel shame because you'll realize you're not

00:12:23: the only one with that coping behavior.

00:12:25: And- And it's okay.

00:12:29: And then you learn how to, to… You learn how to cope without that behavior.

00:12:35: And, and how does it work?

00:12:37: Because I mean, for, for bulimia, I always said that this is, this is probably

00:12:44: the most difficult thing to get away with because I have to eat, so I cannot

00:12:50: live without eating, and, and I need to make sure that I'm, I'm eating in a

00:12:55: certain, only a certain amount and only certain things so that I don't fall back.

00:12:59: I mean, I'm, I consider myself cured now for about 20 years.

00:13:04: But there was a period where I had b- to be really, really, really careful

00:13:08: about w- what I was eating, when I was eating, with whom I was eating.

00:13:12: And I think for alcohol, it's the same because you're exposed to it everywhere.

00:13:16: So I mean, how are you coping with that when…

00:13:19: How do you go through those moments where you feel, okay, maybe

00:13:23: one drink doesn't hurt anymore?

00:13:26: Mm-hmm.

00:13:27: Well, for me, the, I like to call it my why.

00:13:30: Like, whenever I'm thinking of changing something, and especially in

00:13:34: this instance, it was the drinking, like I wanted to stop drinking.

00:13:38: And so the reason I…

00:13:40: Like, I think of it as like, you have your coping behavior, and

00:13:44: obviously it gives you some relief.

00:13:46: It makes you feel good.

00:13:47: Even if you hate that you're doing it, there's something it's providing you

00:13:50: or you wouldn't be doing it, right?

00:13:53: So for me, that was drinking.

00:13:54: And even though I didn't do it all the time, it was occasional.

00:13:57: On the other hand, I didn't wanna ever drive home drunk again,

00:14:02: and that, that is another thing that alcohol could provide me.

00:14:06: The, death.

00:14:07: You know, it could, it could destroy my life in the same

00:14:10: hand, in different hands, right?

00:14:12: And so for me, the possible destruction of my life outweighed my, my desire to drink.

00:14:19: And so I call it my why.

00:14:20: And I keep that with me now because I know that drinking is sneaky, and

00:14:26: because I've been doing it for 40 years and telling myself the same story.

00:14:29: So if I don't want it to sneak up on me again, I just don't drink, and if I

00:14:35: start to think I can, I remember that day, I remember all the around it, and

00:14:40: then I tell myself I'm not a drinker anymore So I think the beautiful thing

00:14:46: is once we get our group, our tribe, and we start getting the help we need,

00:14:52: we can play it forward in the sense of like I, sometimes I've had a craving,

00:14:56: and then I think, "Well, what…

00:14:58: So I drink, and then what?

00:15:01: Five years down the tubes and I'm a drinker again, and maybe

00:15:04: I'm gonna drive home drunk again?

00:15:06: Do I really want that?" No.

00:15:08: So get over the craving, call a friend, go to my meeting, do whatever

00:15:13: I need to do to get past this moment.

00:15:16: And the more you can build those wins, the stronger you get and the,

00:15:21: and the further distance you get from that coping behavior, right?

00:15:25: I mean, don't you find the same for you?

00:15:27: Like, because you said it's been 20 years or something.

00:15:30: Yeah.

00:15:30: Yeah, I

00:15:31: think it's- Have you had that experience?

00:15:32: It-- for me, it was really one point in time where somebody said something

00:15:37: to me, and from that moment on, I was like, "I'm really stupid. What I'm doing

00:15:42: here?" And, and I stopped from there on.

00:15:45: And- And it was so it, it… and then I had a remission once because

00:15:51: of a difficult situation in my life.

00:15:53: But again, someone said something to me and I'm like, "Yeah, what I'm

00:15:56: doing here?" And it was a realization, and it was one point in time.

00:16:00: And yes, I had to kind of watch my eating, but, I would not allow myself,

00:16:07: as, as you do, I would not allow myself to throw up again because that's what,

00:16:12: what's so harmful with, with bulimia.

00:16:15: Right.

00:16:15: And don't you think like-- okay, so maybe I'm just an ass.

00:16:20: Tell me if I'm, like, in a spot I shouldn't be.

00:16:23: But when you're going through the change process, especially in the beginning,

00:16:27: you're gonna-- it's, it's the hardest time because you're-- the pattern's ingrained,

00:16:32: so you're gonna get the craving to maybe for you it was you're throwing up.

00:16:37: For me, it was drinking four beers.

00:16:40: And that's the, you know, that's the hard part is when you wanna

00:16:44: do it and you're like going, "Oh." But you get through it, right?

00:16:48: And you survive it.

00:16:49: Mm. And then you're like, "Okay, I can do this." Like, "And I didn't die." Like it

00:16:54: just helps you keep going with your goals.

00:16:59: Yeah.

00:16:59: And, and for me it was a bit different.

00:17:01: For me, it really was like flicking a, a switch, and, and

00:17:06: then I had no issues anymore.

00:17:08: But I had a lot of issues before that moment, because I was always

00:17:12: trying to stop and I couldn't.

00:17:15: Wow.

00:17:15: Yeah.

00:17:18: So for everyone it's different, right?

00:17:20: It's, it's different, yeah I guess that's the moral of that

00:17:21: story.

00:17:22: I, I, yeah.

00:17:24: And I think it is, as you said, I think the most important part is to find support

00:17:29: and look for support and ask for help.

00:17:33: Yeah, Christine, and another thing for me, 'cause I actually did quit drinking

00:17:37: once years ago on my own, but I n- I found that, I guess the bottom line is

00:17:42: don't be afraid to invest in yourself.

00:17:44: Because I didn't wanna spend any money on help and but I

00:17:48: was willing to go buy alcohol.

00:17:49: So it's just, you know, where are my priorities, and now that I did

00:17:55: spend money on my growth and my, you know, now I… It's the best

00:17:59: money I ever spent on myself.

00:18:01: And so I just encourage any listeners that are thinking about it to don't,

00:18:04: don't be afraid to invest in yourself.

00:18:06: You're worth it.

00:18:07: And, and if somebody's listening now and is beginning to question their drinking

00:18:13: habits, their eating habits, maybe smoking, and they're feel afraid to talk

00:18:19: about that with anyone, so what would you want them to know and what could a

00:18:23: first step towards support look like?

00:18:26: Yeah, 'cause that's really scary for sure.

00:18:29: I remember.

00:18:30: Well, there's, you can always, there's things you can read.

00:18:33: There's groups you can join that are free where you, , maybe participate

00:18:40: but maybe with your camera off.

00:18:42: You know, just dipping your toe in the water is like how I like to explain

00:18:46: it because I know that when I started, I didn't wanna share anything either.

00:18:51: I- it was very scary for me, and I didn't wanna say, "I'm never gonna

00:18:55: drink again." That's the other thing.

00:18:57: Like try to eliminate… Just think of what's going on today.

00:19:00: Don't think, I'm never going to drink again, because I was like,

00:19:03: "Oh, but I wanna drink." And now I realize I don't, right?

00:19:06: But at the, at the beginning it's very, it's overwhelming.

00:19:10: And so just, no, I just encourage to find something, a place, a group that

00:19:16: you feel you can try out and just try.

00:19:19: And if it's not the right fit, try another one and you'll find your people.

00:19:25: Yeah.

00:19:26: And I like the idea of, of saying it's not forever, but I try it.

00:19:30: I just try it maybe for an hour, maybe for two hours, maybe for half a day, maybe for

00:19:35: a day, and then I can take it from there.

00:19:38: And, and you, you said something earlier that I also strongly believe in.

00:19:42: It's like as soon as I see myself, as I consider myself a non-drinker, then my

00:19:50: whole thinking about it changes as well.

00:19:54: It's so empowering

00:19:57: be- because rather than say I can't drink, I choose not to.

00:20:00: Why would I drink?

00:20:02: It provides nothing for me, and it's…

00:20:05: Yeah, it's just a poison to my body, quite honestly.

00:20:08: It's, it's… Our thinking is huge in, in how we change.

00:20:12: Yeah.

00:20:13: Our brains are pretty powerful.

00:20:16: They are.

00:20:17: They are.

00:20:18: They are.

00:20:19: Now, how are you partying nowadays?

00:20:21: 'Cause, so what, what has changed in your life since you're

00:20:24: no longer drinking alcohol?

00:20:26: I still party.

00:20:27: My partner and I, we went to a Halloween party, which is big in

00:20:29: the US, and, uh, for some people, and we have fun dressing up.

00:20:33: People are drinking, and I just choose a non-alcohol beer.

00:20:36: There's all kinds of… In fact, in Germany, we were… I was just there a

00:20:40: year ago on a, a alcohol-free wine tour in, Germany, and that was phenomenal.

00:20:46: There's a lot of options where you, especially in the beginning, where maybe

00:20:52: you're a little more self-conscious about maybe not drinking when other

00:20:56: people are, but you can give the illusion to drinking and, and you're not.

00:21:00: And I just have just as much fun, more actually, because

00:21:04: I'm not waking up hungover.

00:21:06: So you have… At least you have more fun the next day.

00:21:09: Yeah, and I can always leave.

00:21:11: I mean, the one thing I do is I give myself an exit strategy in case the

00:21:15: place I go where people don't wanna leave, 'cause after they start drinking,

00:21:19: sometimes it goes on until 3:00 in the morning, and I was done at 10:00.

00:21:23: So I just say good night, and I'm out the door.

00:21:28: Yeah.

00:21:28: Yeah, because that's something I find pretty hard as well, when I'm the

00:21:32: only one not drinking and everyone abo- around me is getting drunk,

00:21:35: especially when I arrive late at a place where people have been drinking

00:21:39: already and I, I arrive there sober.

00:21:42: So it's easier when they start drinking when I'm around.

00:21:45: Do you have experience with that as well?

00:21:47: Yeah.

00:21:48: I think I don't stay long because it's like they don't

00:21:52: even… It's not authentic.

00:21:54: And once they start saying the same thing twice, I'm out of there.

00:21:58: It's like, why am I here?

00:22:00: My time's valuable and, you know, I'm just wasting it right now.

00:22:03: So you'd rather not spend the time with those people anymore

00:22:06: and have other people around you?

00:22:09: Or just be sure I show up before they start drinking too much so I can leave

00:22:14: when it starts getting ridiculous.

00:22:18: Hmm.

00:22:18: Wow.

00:22:19: But most of my friends really don't drink.

00:22:21: It's, you know, at this age, it's not… I think maybe earlier it

00:22:26: w- would've been more like that scenario, but now most people aren't

00:22:30: drinking that much in my group.

00:22:32: That's, that's interesting, 'cause I, I hadn't the impression that

00:22:35: it's changes with age over here.

00:22:39: That's an interesting observation.

00:22:42: Yeah.

00:22:42: Well, the statistics show in the United States that the drinking is increasing

00:22:47: in the s- in the 55, 60 age bracket and older because of all the retirees.

00:22:54: The baby boomers are retiring-

00:22:56: and they're starting to pick up the wine, the happy hours, and what have you.

00:23:00: And, uh, so that could be true.

00:23:03: Maybe it's just the group of people I'm hanging out with, that group of my

00:23:07: friends are more alcohol-free friends now.

00:23:09: I've made a whole new group of women friends at 60 that are all

00:23:14: over the world who aren't drinking, and so it's been really fulfilling.

00:23:19: Wow.

00:23:22: Yeah.

00:23:22: Well, what is it that you would like to leave us with, leave the audience with?

00:23:30: Well, I guess if you're thinking that maybe you're drinking too much,

00:23:35: just ask yourself the question, how is it working for me, and start your

00:23:39: list, you know, this is what alcohol is giving me, this is what it's not.

00:23:43: And if you think you might wanna take a break, go for it.

00:23:47: Great advice.

00:23:49: Thank you.

00:23:50: You're welcome.

00:23:52: This was Lead Well!

00:23:54: Now what is the one thing that you're taking away from this episode?

00:23:58: Please share in the comments below and do share the podcast with your friends

00:24:01: and family, but only if you like it.