What Are You Chasing, and Why?

00:00:00: And so that's what achievement gave me was a sense of self-worth.

00:00:02: It made believe I'm worthy or

00:00:04: something.".

00:00:06: Hi and welcome to Lead.

00:00:07: Well!

00:00:12: My guest today is Sonny Garg, author of the new memoir Daisy Toodotto – my family's American dream…and The Cost Of Never Being Enough.

00:00:24: By almost every conventional measure, Sonny had an extraordinarily successful career.

00:00:29: He studied at the University of Chicago in Harvard, served as a White House Fellow and went to senior executive roles at Exelon including president of Exelone Power & Chief Information and Innovation Officer.

00:00:42: And underneath those achievements was a more difficult question.

00:00:50: The questions were what happens when that drive makes you successful?

00:00:54: is also built on belief enough.

00:00:58: And isn't that something many of us know?

00:01:02: So in daisy-two dot oh, Sonny you write about growing up as the son of Indian immigrants becoming what you call an achievement addict and eventually beginning to separate life you have been conditioned to pursue from the life you actually wanted to live.

00:01:19: so warm welcome to lead.

00:01:21: well Sonny!

00:01:22: Thank You Christine.

00:01:23: thank for having me.

00:01:24: I'm excited

00:01:27: Sure, so you talk about being addicted to achievement and success.

00:01:33: So what was it that an achievement was giving you?

00:01:38: What did you gain from being the achiever?

00:01:41: I almost have to dial back a little bit just because of how my dad grew up.

00:01:47: He was born in colonial India.

00:01:48: when the Brits were My grandfather worked at the railways Citation.

00:01:54: his whole career weighed packages sold tickets all that kind of stuff.

00:01:57: and for my father what he saw was that My grandfather's had little agency And a little control over how is home self-worth?

00:02:08: So for him, and he always felt lesser than it.

00:02:11: so from I dad.

00:02:12: I think a lot Was.

00:02:14: look at i'm going to show the world That I more then they think I am by achieving.

00:02:19: And it wasn't just the Brits, right?

00:02:25: It's an Indian caste system.

00:02:26: There are all these other sort of mechanisms by which you're made to feel lesser than.

00:02:30: and he chose address.

00:02:33: that was say look I'm going show on better but achieving.

00:02:38: so we got through America became a full professor did all this sorts things in his past time.

00:02:43: thats why daisy.

00:02:45: one point oh is programming idea your worth tied achievement Right?

00:02:51: and the idea was hey, you're going to Harvard You're gonna be important.

00:02:54: The quote from a play the musical Hamilton?

00:02:58: You're Gonna Be in the rooms where it happens And if you're not then your loser right.

00:03:03: and so.

00:03:04: and that Was sort of the message.

00:03:05: and so that's what achievement gave me was a sense Of self-worth.

00:03:08: It made me believe that I was worthy or something and but like any and the reason i use Addiction as A metaphor is because similar To other types of addictions he gets harder to get high Right?

00:03:20: It gets harder to satisfy.

00:03:21: So yeah, I went to Harvard but now how do i become a trustee?

00:03:24: or when Aspen Crownfellow?

00:03:25: and now How Do I Become A Trustee Or Whatever it Might Be?

00:03:28: And It Starts To Impact Your Sense Of Self Negatively.

00:03:33: You Don't Feel Like Yourself.

00:03:35: Most Importantly For Me At Least Was It Starts To Undermine Your Relationships.

00:03:40: It Consumed me achieving not only professionally, but within the community.

00:03:45: So I had to be on the right boards and go to the right galas in right events and hanging out with the right people even if i didn't like them.

00:03:53: it was just like.

00:03:53: these are the People you're supposed To Be Hanging Out With Right because they're important.

00:03:57: And so that's what?

00:03:58: That's What I write about is Just The Intersection In The Tie Between Self Worth and Achievement Was Really What Was Driving Me Toward Greater and Greater Achievements.

00:04:10: And what I hear also from you, and then we will tell me whether that's correct is because you said... You heard this calling to be an achiever in your environment or private life.

00:04:24: Was it to make sure you satisfied your parents?

00:04:30: Or was there something growing within you?

00:04:33: so how would describe them?

00:04:35: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of everything.

00:04:38: Certainly was driven by the idea an element of conditionality on The House which is my dad would be happy with me and feel more loved or if achieved.

00:04:49: so there was this sense almost as transaction right?

00:04:53: And part of that there'a lot legitimacy in way he grew up but eventually achievements were extension him Right.

00:05:01: And so he enjoyed those as well, So I do think that was definitely the conditioning of look.

00:05:06: this is how you're going to be loved and This Is How You are Going To Be Received Based Upon How Well You Are Doing In All These Different Dimensions Of Achievement.

00:05:16: If That Was An Outlier Mindset in Society It Would Have Been Harder.

00:05:21: But That Is A Large Part Reflection Of Our Broader Society.

00:05:25: Our Broder Society Is Constantly Focusing On achievements and material growth, consumerism.

00:05:32: And all these sorts of things we recognize once I left X-Lonix.

00:05:36: no one's ever going to give me an award for being a great dad but i'll get plenty awards.

00:05:40: be a civic leader if donate philanthropically So societally.

00:05:46: his mindset was the way that we have orchestrated ourselves and structured ourself societaly feeds that addiction.

00:05:54: It's just like, yeah I'm an axelon.

00:05:55: Yeah i'm a c-suite executive.

00:05:57: Then it's okay.

00:05:58: what car are you driving?

00:05:59: Why aren't you driving this car?

00:06:00: everybody is driving a rivian.

00:06:01: why Are you driving that old car?

00:06:03: and by the way where do you get your suits made?

00:06:05: oh You buy them off the rack.

00:06:06: Oh That's kind of weird.

00:06:08: when don't you have a wine cellar collection?

00:06:10: And so all these sort of things.

00:06:13: So wasn't just.

00:06:15: He may have programmed it But it was The game board was definitely designed to help me To run that program and run it well.

00:06:23: Yeah, and I hear you because when used to be VP at American company.

00:06:28: And once you are in that environment as you say You have people around with all these fancy suits With all the fancy devices It feels like your part of them if also join it there.

00:06:41: So i think u had this turning point When you figured out or started feeling That success does not longer feel right for you.

00:06:54: So when did that happen?

00:06:57: Was there a specific point in time or was it the long period where that grew within

00:07:02: you?".

00:07:03: Yeah, I think it was probably growing within me.

00:07:06: It came together...I'd just been named to the Executive Committee of Exelon but at And I was having lunch with a really good friend of mine and he's just like, man that is amazing.

00:07:17: You are on the executive committee at this Fortune hundred twenty-five

00:07:20: company.".

00:07:20: When i looked at him when i said Tim my life sucks!

00:07:24: He turned to me without missing a beat.

00:07:27: he had six words That really sent me onto whole new journey.

00:07:31: what do you chasing in?

00:07:33: why?

00:07:35: P&I studied we have been asked by crown fellows meaning of life and read Aristotle, blah-blah-bluh.

00:07:42: But for whatever reason those six words were just

00:07:46: impactful.".

00:07:48: And I kind thought about what am i chasing?

00:07:50: When it really got down to the basics... It was chasing more achievement ,more recognition, more titles, more money.

00:07:58: All of them are external validation.

00:08:00: That's why driving me is a need for external validation through these goodies that sound like way to live.

00:08:07: That's not new.

00:08:08: And the irony was, if my grandfather's agency had been stolen from him by The Brits I had willingly given up my agency to others To let other people tell me who i should be versus actually embracing My own Agency.

00:08:24: to say this is Who?

00:08:25: I want to Be in the world and In fact the greatest gift my dad gave Me Was coming to America giving me agency and choice in a way that I never would have Had probably anywhere else in the World.

00:08:36: But I had neglected that gift.

00:08:38: And it was my charge at the point to figure out, okay what does this mean?

00:08:41: To lean into my own agency and build a life that feels more like mine versus what other people want from

00:08:47: me.".

00:08:48: How did that affect your leadership?

00:08:50: when you talk about because of this achievement addiction... ...and just said is not your agency or fulfilling others' agencies?

00:08:58: so.... What was showing on the

00:09:01: outside?!

00:09:01: I think there were number things.

00:09:03: There's little bit of conflict right in one hand I kind of realized over time, through my leadership roles that there's a great article.

00:09:13: That became a book by Clay Christensen, Harvard Business School Professor called How Will You Measure Your Life?

00:09:19: But in there he talks about management being a noble profession and i remember reading this one paragraph where you said how people feel when they come to work And how they feel When They Go Home To Have Dinner With Their Families Is In A Large Part Determined By How They're Treated.

00:09:35: what people call values based leader, I wanted to feel valued at work.

00:09:39: The disconnect for me and believe that i did a pretty good job in the roles it had.

00:09:44: if you looked something as simple as employee engagement scores in departments led they went up dramatically.

00:09:52: problem was not feeling.

00:09:54: value wasn't feeling like lot of came down too.

00:09:57: just right environment.

00:10:00: There's a great social psychologist named Kurt Lewin who talks about behavior as being a function of person and environment.

00:10:07: And I was trying to be leader in an environment that wasn't aligned with who i wanted to be is the leader, but type of later on.

00:10:13: what it did you know doesn't mean that that environment was wrong.

00:10:17: just meant that high.

00:10:18: that's not.

00:10:18: where should we write like personal relationship because there are two people really love me get married everything will be great right and i think That was the realization.

00:10:29: I wasn't in a wrong environment for the kind of person that wanted to be, most importantly but then also how it would manifest itself as well because we were people before taking on this suit or armor and identity of leader.

00:10:49: So I spent a lot of time with students and it drives me nuts.

00:11:01: the fact that we're trying to teach them how To be a leader before?

00:11:04: We try to teach.

00:11:05: Them.

00:11:06: What kind of human being do you want to be?

00:11:08: let's think about who Do You Want to Be as A Human Being?

00:11:11: And then Who?

00:11:11: what does That Show up in Your Leadership?

00:11:14: Instead Of?

00:11:14: This is The Way Jack Welch Led.

00:11:16: this Is The way Blah Blah, blah.

00:11:17: They Are Just Like.

00:11:18: That's Ridiculous Because Then You're Assuming a Role your.

00:11:22: It's Not an Extension of You And that's really where great leadership comes from.

00:11:26: So, where do you find the distinction between it is really healthy leadership and healthy ambition or trying to prove your worth?

00:11:36: How can we understand what's the difference?

00:11:40: It's super hard.

00:11:41: right now I don't know if there are one simple formula they could use... What i tried with business school students.

00:11:46: even myself has just posed a series of questions that can inform ourselves, that can help us define for our selves the answers to those questions.

00:11:55: Right?

00:11:56: I don't think there is a single one way to do it and so i think you are asking yourself okay what's motivating you?

00:12:02: What Are You Chasing ?

00:12:04: The title ,are you chasing?

00:12:06: or are you chasing?

00:12:07: building an environment where everybody feels valued?

00:12:10: .What Is Really Underneath?

00:12:12: While Doing What You're Doing And being honest about this will lead More aligned with who you want to be in the world and they kind of leader that shows up Right, I might feel like look screw it man.

00:12:25: I just wanna get to the top And that means people are commodities to me?

00:12:30: I don't agree with that.

00:12:31: But better than you admit it yourself then just become that person and not knowing you've come That person right.

00:12:38: i was becoming that person because i wasn't power-and-electric utility industry and It's not until data centers and AI wasn't growing.

00:12:49: So the only way you met earnings was by cost cutting, what's the biggest line in your costs?

00:12:55: People right.

00:12:57: And so he had to commodify people In order and commoditize them in order To make it easy that continuously lay them off or whatever You want to call it.

00:13:07: synergies are a whatever the silly words at The end of day human beings.

00:13:14: And so I think that sort of to me is it's, and that's not necessarily right or wrong.

00:13:20: It's Is That Who You Want To Be?

00:13:22: How you want to go.

00:13:23: do that Right!

00:13:24: So for Me its Not Like A Right Way To Do It.

00:13:26: Its More Asking Yourself who do you wanna be?

00:13:28: Then how does that manifest in terms Of The Type Of Leader You Are Embracing?

00:13:33: Being Honest About That I mean i have my way But Im Not Saying Its the Only Way.

00:13:40: What Will You Say Matters beyond the resume.

00:13:44: I write about it a little bit in the book and David Brooks is written, another ethic.

00:13:48: he borrowed from somebody else this idea of resume virtues versus eulogy virtues.

00:13:54: And i think In The Book what?

00:13:56: I tried to do was also talk About my mentor-in-life who Was a professor at University Chicago and I worked for had A research center called Chapin Hall Center For Children and for me It seemed like What He did.

00:14:07: Is he started with his Eulogy Virtues?

00:14:10: Who Do I want To be?

00:14:11: I want to be compassionate, and I wanna be humble.

00:14:13: And I'm gonna be

00:14:13: grateful.".

00:14:15: He let that then influence how he built his resume versus them being two separate people right?

00:14:22: So i think it's super important.

00:14:24: there is a buddy of mine named Tony Klemmer who runs an organization called Wisdom for Good.

00:14:30: We should start with moral formation- Who do you know what we're talking about?

00:14:33: That's typically the eulogy!

00:14:36: Let THAT inform your resume Right versus.

00:14:40: we are so obsessed with the resume and I was it's hard not to be.

00:14:44: And you look, we all have to make a living and make a life.

00:14:47: But i think its part of this is like where?

00:14:50: What's your starting point?

00:14:51: if your starting Point Is The Resume then It's All About Yourself in External Achievement.

00:14:57: If Its A eulogy Eulogy.

00:14:59: Is Typically about Other People Nobody Gets Up and Says hey Sonny Garg Made A Couple made A lot Of Frickin Money.

00:15:07: No, they say suddenly was a good guy.

00:15:08: He was a Good dad he was the good husband.

00:15:10: He is a good friend of me.

00:15:12: So I think that's.

00:15:13: I would start with you.

00:15:14: who do?

00:15:14: Do I want to be?

00:15:15: and you can kind of get a little bit Of that if you start not in a morbid way.

00:15:19: Think about what don't?

00:15:20: why people to say about me?

00:15:22: And then am i That person in them.

00:15:24: going back to Lewin behaviors or function in person an environment It's like If thats The Person I Want To Be What type of Environment Enables that?

00:15:33: If I want to be humble and grateful, compassionate or whatever it might.

00:15:38: Probably not going into investment banking right?

00:15:41: That's fine.

00:15:43: but that is what i learned from.

00:15:45: herald was define who you wanted to be then make sure the environments are exposing yourself too.

00:15:53: support ability of being a person.

00:15:57: so it doesn't mean trade off.

00:16:00: It was the youngest dean of The School Of Social Services at University Chicago when he was thirty.

00:16:05: They called him THE BOY DEAN.

00:16:07: He founded Chapin Hall, one of the most important children research centers in the country.

00:16:12: He was a White House Fellow and an advisor to presidents but he himself is part of all that.

00:16:17: Now as leader of innovation you know alot about MVPs Minimal Viable Products.

00:16:24: I do

00:16:25: So.

00:16:25: my question would be what is your minimal viable ME?

00:16:29: When I decided look, I'm not who I want to be.

00:16:33: It was starting with Who do i wanna Be To Myself Right and again?

00:16:37: I went back to herald because I wanted it to be more like Harold.

00:16:40: Harold I gave the eulogy one of his eulogies when he passed And He had selected different people to give in.

00:16:47: I Was this student.

00:16:49: we'd Had a friend and A colleague and and remember I Gave The Eulogy at the end hundreds Of People came up to me said they're Like.

00:16:55: Oh Harold was my mentor too And I just thought, man what a great life that is.

00:17:00: There was no difference by who you were or what race ethnicity wealth anything.

00:17:06: he was just a supportive mentor to anybody and so i do try to say okay What kind of qualities?

00:17:12: Do I want to be as a

00:17:13: person?".

00:17:14: Then going back to the idea of minimally viable product, minimally valuable me.

00:17:19: That product also exists.

00:17:21: You're also looking for product market fit Right, and so part of that was okay.

00:17:25: going back to Lewin if I'm at this product.

00:17:28: That is me This minimally viable me.

00:17:31: Which environments are the ones?

00:17:33: That will enable that product to actually have value right?

00:17:37: So they had made me rethink Okay What it what its?

00:17:40: what does this minimally valuable mean?

00:17:41: look like a home And with my kids in my wife, but as it looked like in work What does it look like in my community?

00:17:47: Was It Look Like In My Friendships?

00:17:49: So you're taking this minimally viable product, your entering different markets and your iterating on that.

00:17:54: And so hopefully find some type of product market fit That exists in the different dimensions In which we operate The different environments right?

00:18:03: I merge together my mind.

00:18:04: the idea of minimally valuable products Minimally viable me Luens behaviors a function A person an environment and the idea Product Market Fit.

00:18:13: It's almost becoming Similar in terms Of how We Find ourselves through iteration versus just defining the endpoint in a way that we don't know, because you have to experience it and learn.

00:18:26: Because at the end of day these are all roles and identities that we play...in different environments right?

00:18:32: We play as husband, father or leader whatever.

00:18:36: that means no one.

00:18:38: if you ask ten leadership professors will give you ten answers on what a leader is But I think at the core of that is who you are.

00:18:45: So, You have to decide here's Who i want To be and then am i in environments That enable me to continue?

00:18:52: To grow into that person?

00:18:54: And if i'm not i should re-imagine those environments because If your as fortunate than i was As many people Are At least In The States we Have Agency We Have Choice.

00:19:05: Right.

00:19:06: a lot Of Times i Think Fear Prevents Us From Exercising Those.

00:19:11: When you said at the beginning that this kind of achievement, addiction and being driven to achievement was also connected to this idea of never being enough.

00:19:24: I hear someone else now talking to me... And still i hear this person who is still very successful and still very ambitious.

00:19:36: so the question really Did you become less ambitious when you noticed that type of success did not still feel like a success?

00:19:46: Or the reason why You were ambitious or the source of your ambition change?

00:19:54: Yeah, I think it's more the latter.

00:19:57: What i've tried to do and its hard is separate my sense of self-worth from my achievements And there are different ways we can define our worth.

00:20:09: You can just believe that you are just loved because you're a child of God or whatever it might be, right?

00:20:16: And then there's other ways that you might define your worth.

00:20:19: That maybe tied to relationships and things like that.

00:20:22: for me at least what has been valuable is definitely separate my sense how I feel about myself in my work from all these external accomplishments.

00:20:32: It doesn't mean I don't want to do things, it just means that if i'm not being recognized and making a ton of money but still can wake up because there's other things defining how I feel about myself.

00:20:52: To the degree is less based upon an external source Then that's for me at least it's been.

00:21:01: It's a much more joyous way to live, right?

00:21:05: If I don't feel like feeling about but if i don't Feel Like i need To constantly prove myself in order to like Myself.

00:21:11: There is a comfort and there Is an ease In That And then everything becomes gravy on top of that.

00:21:19: But i still want to do important things.

00:21:20: i Still Want to spend time with young people and i spent A lot Of Time trying to help them think about these things.

00:21:26: What are you chasing and why?

00:21:27: And how much is enough, right?

00:21:29: How will you know when it's

00:21:30: enough?".

00:21:31: Things like that.

00:21:31: I still want to have that type of influence.

00:21:35: my started a non-profit with the friend of mine.

00:21:36: they still do that.

00:21:37: i just wrote this book.

00:21:39: but if ten years ago If I'd written his book ,I would be checking sales every morning.

00:21:44: being okay if im not best seller then Im a loser!

00:21:50: But its fun Because it gives me the opportunity to do that kind of things I want to, which is have conversations with folks like you.

00:21:56: So if one of our listeners isn't in a position where cognitively they understand that there are not enough places and success does feel like success for them because they don't have the right motivation or probably also resonate was this achievement addiction?

00:22:16: what would be your piece of advice In addition to, of course reading Daisy.

00:22:23: Well I don't know if they need to read it but... It's a great question and the thing that i've tried to avoid is what a friend of mine calls being a guru versus a fellow traveler?

00:22:33: I think its broader set questions than encourage people ask.

00:22:37: really starting with the question where are you really chasing in all dimensions your life work family community?

00:22:44: were you chasing?

00:22:45: not only why?

00:22:47: who told those things we're chasing Right?

00:22:50: how much of your sense of self-worth is tied to what you are achieving in these different dimensions, right?

00:22:56: How much is enough?

00:22:58: and I just wrote an article per an outlet.

00:23:00: It's based on sort Leo Tolstoy.

00:23:02: Wrote this beautiful short story called how much land does a man need?

00:23:06: But how much as enough like?

00:23:07: how will you know?

00:23:08: And by the way not just land but how much love how much friendship how much family.

00:23:12: so i think there's Just a series Of questions That we have to grapple with that help us inform who we want to be in the world, and also challenge the shoulds.

00:23:23: I should make this much money—I should have this kind of house blah blah blah.

00:23:28: so that sort-of thing?

00:23:29: That's only anything i can do is start there...and then start with what are some qualities of who you want to either myself or those environments.

00:23:46: But I think going back to the minimally viable me, it's just starting on who do i want to be in a world?

00:23:52: And asking yourself these questions that have been laying out.

00:23:55: but I think help us begin to define for ourselves Who we want to Be versus accepting who We Think The World Wants Us To Be.

00:24:04: Yeah and with That We Get That Inner Conviction of I've Done The Right Thing Without Anyone telling me that I did.

00:24:16: Yeah, and when you might say look i want to live on an island or I wanna do this...or I want to do that there's this concept called the Ikigai in Japan right which is This Venn Diagram of what Do You Love?

00:24:27: What Are You Good At with His World Need?

00:24:28: What Can You Get Paid For?

00:24:30: In my senses for many Of Us we come into The world and the world says..This Is What We Need!

00:24:33: This Is What You can get paid for.

00:24:35: get good at this.

00:24:36: two hundred years ago It Was Farming Or Whatever it was Ten years ago, it's like becoming AI and a data scientist or whatever.

00:24:42: It is very few people start with what do I love?

00:24:45: And artists are the ones that are really good at this.

00:24:48: They kind of say This Is Who I Am!

00:24:50: And i have to go build my craft... ...and then I can figure out if The World Needs In How I Get Paid For It Right?

00:24:56: That's A Little Riskier & Its A Little More Insecure.

00:24:59: But There'S Something There About At Least Paying Attention To That Dimension Versus Just Falling In Versus Ignoring It.

00:25:09: Yeah, and I think in my generation.

00:25:12: I saw a lot of that happening at around the age of forty to fifty And now working with younger people...I see A LOT of them asking those questions already at the age Of twenty and even younger.

00:25:25: so i think The environment has really changed.

00:25:29: That makes me really happy.

00:25:31: Don't know what your perspective is on that?

00:25:34: yeah no i agree Who knows?

00:25:37: Because the students that are attracted to me or in that space, right.

00:25:41: So it may be selection bias but I also think when i look at my kids who were in their twenties and they're friends of my nieces and nephews...I think there just more maybe not what I want And theres a trade-off for that.

00:25:56: There's a realization A consequence Right!

00:26:00: so I do thing.

00:26:00: They trying to be more thoughtful about What is this.

00:26:04: they wanted life in a way that feels more coherent across all the dimensions of their lives, which I think is great.

00:26:12: Yeah and also i like this aspect of having an impact on other people and really being mindful of others and surrounding people as well.

00:26:24: so you're not only living your own life but you are living.

00:26:28: Yeah, I

00:26:32: think that's super and we've lost them with social media makes it even harder.

00:26:37: And maybe there is a return to what Robert Putnam called building Social Capital or Building Relationships With People?

00:26:48: I'm a very hopeful person.

00:26:59: I

00:27:02: don't want to be rose-colored glasses, but i also still believe that... Still believe there's an arc toward goodness and it's not a straight arc And It's Not A Straight Line.

00:27:12: But i do believe we're moving in That!

00:27:13: I think thats who We are as

00:27:14: People!!

00:27:15: I Think We Are

00:27:15: Compassionate!!!

00:27:16: I Think WE ARE

00:27:16: CARRING!!!

00:27:17: And I THINK We're In A Really Difficult Resetting Of What Society Looks Like.

00:27:23: But I'm Hopeful That As We Reset We Return To Things That We All value like connection and love in relationships.

00:27:33: And just simple goodness, kindness because being mean is draining it's exhausting It doesn't give you energy takes energy Versus relationship actually gives you energy.

00:27:47: So I'm hopeful we'll find our way back to that.

00:27:50: Wow!

00:27:59: your wisdom and for sharing with us, your insights from this great career that turned from an only corporate career into having a fulfilled life.

00:28:12: Yeah well thank you for having me Christine.

00:28:14: I really enjoyed the conversation!

00:28:16: Thank You This was Leadwell.

00:28:19: Now what is one thing that you're taking away form this episode?

00:28:23: Please share in comments below And do Share the podcast With Your Friends & Family But I want you to feel like it.