Ep 120. Communicate So People Actually Hear You

00:00:00: So for me, one of the most important skills for anybody to learn is really

00:00:04: effective, really good storytelling.

00:00:06: How do you have a narrative arc?

00:00:08: How do you paint a picture for people about how an individual situation

00:00:13: relates to a broader theory or a trend?

00:00:15: How do you capture emotion and imagination rather than just

00:00:19: communicating facts and data?

00:00:22: Hi, and welcome to Lead Well.

00:00:28: Hi and welcome Andrew.

00:00:31: Andrew, you are an executive coach, a communications leader, and the

00:00:36: author of, Honestly Speaking, How The Way We Communicate Transforms

00:00:41: Leadership, Love, and Life.

00:00:45: You bring deep experience from senior roles in employee communications and

00:00:50: cultures at Meta and Johnson & Johnson, and now you work globally with leaders and

00:00:56: high performing teams navigating change.

00:00:59: And I guess everyone is going through a lot of

00:01:02: change at this time.

00:01:06: You also are a long time practitioner and teacher of yoga and meditation.

00:01:11: Yeah.

00:01:11: Yeah.

00:01:11: And you're integrating mindfulness into leadership communication in a way that's

00:01:16: practical, grounded, and very relevant, of course, for today's organizations.

00:01:23: So how about we explore how leaders can communicate with clarity and authenticity

00:01:30: and also presence.

00:01:32: Especially when things are uncertain and uncomfortable like there are today.

00:01:37: Welcome again, Andrew.

00:01:39: I'm so happy to be here.

00:01:41: Thank you for that kind introduction, and I'm happy to join you.

00:01:45: Wonderful.

00:01:46: Now you are, you have a, an interesting combination that

00:01:51: I'm seeing more and more between mindfulness and yoga and leadership.

00:01:57: And when I think back to my days in corporate, a lot of the

00:02:04: executives started to practice yoga.

00:02:08: And at the end of the day, I always felt that the goal was to do a bit

00:02:16: of mindfulness and some yoga so that they could be even more productive

00:02:21: and spend more hours working.

00:02:24: And it, it felt like it was yeah, a way to, to increase productivity.

00:02:32: So what's your take on that?

00:02:33: What do you see there?

00:02:36: Yeah, I love that.

00:02:37: And I actually think that I think about it a little bit differently,

00:02:40: which is, and I've been teaching for a while and practicing for a lot longer.

00:02:44: And of course I'm, I share what my teachers have taught

00:02:47: me to the best of my ability.

00:02:49: So I don't hold myself out as the total expert in this.

00:02:52: But what I have noticed is that many of the people that I teach

00:02:55: tend to come to yoga first as a means for, like stress reduction.

00:03:00: And it's really about like the physical body.

00:03:03: They're like, I just wanna get more flexible.

00:03:05: I need, I'm really stressed out.

00:03:06: I feel like yoga is calming.

00:03:08: And I think that's great.

00:03:11: What you realize is you get a little bit more into it is that's maybe 5% of what

00:03:16: the broader yoga tradition is actually all about and what it can teach us.

00:03:20: And so one of the beautiful things about a yoga class in a modern sort of householder

00:03:25: situation or in modern settings,

00:03:27: is that becoming more in touch with your body, helps you to

00:03:31: understand yourself and regulate the ups and downs a little bit more.

00:03:35: And so that's the sort of stress reduction piece.

00:03:37: But I think the more interesting thing for leadership is that it isn't

00:03:41: just how do I reduce stress and then therefore perhaps be more productive,

00:03:45: maybe.

00:03:46: But really it's about how do I see more of myself in other people?

00:03:50: How do I see other people in me?

00:03:52: And so to me, leadership is really all about how do I motivate and

00:03:57: inspire people to follow me when they have the choice not to.

00:04:01: And I do that through a variety of ways.

00:04:03: But how do I really connect with people in a more human,

00:04:07: more authentic, grounded way,

00:04:09: being myself.

00:04:10: A lot of times, I think, I work with leaders who feel like they need to

00:04:14: communicate as it's like a presentation or a performance, and yoga teaches us that's

00:04:19: actually what we're trying to strip away, so that we're just more fully ourself.

00:04:23: More fully ourselves.

00:04:24: And you also made a great point right now that I come across more and more

00:04:29: that we're all, we're all different.

00:04:31: And as leaders, we need to be aware of that, first of all,

00:04:35: and then take that into account.

00:04:37: So let's talk more about your approach to communication,

00:04:40: because I know that's your forte.

00:04:43: Yeah.

00:04:44: I think it actually roots in a lot of what we were just talking about, which

00:04:47: is you have to really think if you're trying to communicate with somebody,

00:04:52: anything that's worth communicating is worth communicating, 'cause you want them

00:04:55: to know or to feel or to do something.

00:04:59: And so how do you do that?

00:05:00: You have to really know your audience.

00:05:02: You have to try to connect with them.

00:05:04: I think we've all been on the receiving end of a communication, whether it's

00:05:07: a, a presentation or an email or a Slack message where it feels like

00:05:14: corporate or it feels like it was written by somebody else, or it feels

00:05:17: very stilted and it doesn't feel connected, it doesn't feel human.

00:05:20: The best communicators understand and know their audience.

00:05:23: They speak to their audience and they understand how do I

00:05:26: really bring them along with me?

00:05:28: And the other thing is they really are honest with themselves, again, around

00:05:32: "What do I want my audience, what do I want, Christine, what do I want

00:05:34: Andrew to know or to feel or to do?

00:05:37: And then you can be more conversational about it.

00:05:39: So I sometimes advise people, don't have a script so much as you have a plan.

00:05:44: Have done the work on yourself.

00:05:46: Really be honest.

00:05:47: What are you trying to convey?

00:05:48: Especially if it's a hard conversation or it's a complex topic, make sure that

00:05:53: you've really done the work for yourself around what do I really want the end

00:05:56: outcome of this conversation to be.

00:05:58: And how might I get the audience that I'm speaking to?

00:06:01: What might motivate them?

00:06:02: What kind of information or context might they need to hear?

00:06:06: How might I, my style, inform how they might receive what I'm

00:06:10: trying to get them to receive?

00:06:11: So it's really a much more of a sort of a coaching, navigational conversational

00:06:16: approach to communication rather than, a lot of times we'll start by thinking:

00:06:21: I need to get something outta my head or get something off my chest

00:06:24: and push it out into the world.

00:06:26: Without doing the work of, it's actually a relational, it's a relational exercise.

00:06:30: Yeah.

00:06:31: Making sure that we first think about the audience and who

00:06:34: they are, audience and what

00:06:35: they

00:06:36: are driven by, and what the values are.

00:06:39: That's a really good point.

00:06:40: Another point that I wanted to get your thoughts on is that many of my leadership

00:06:46: coachees at this point, they are, they're pretty worried and also frustrated because

00:06:55: they get a message from top management, they are not at all agreeing to, and they

00:07:04: have to communicate that down to their

00:07:07: employees to their associates.

00:07:10: So what's your take on that position?

00:07:13: This middle manager sandwich position, especially when there is communication

00:07:18: coming their way that they don't really agree with a hundred percent.

00:07:24: I think it's a moment of truth for all leaders and managers, and I've both been

00:07:28: in that position and I now coach people all the time who are in that position.

00:07:33: And so I understand, and I have both sympathy and empathy for

00:07:37: how that can be challenging.

00:07:39: And I think it's a moment of truth.

00:07:41: And so inevitably in any organization, we all have to make

00:07:44: a choice of, is it more or less.

00:07:48: Is the majority of what I'm communicating and the majority of what I'm doing

00:07:51: aligned with an organization's values, even if I'm not gonna agree.

00:07:55: 'cause you're never gonna agree a hundred percent with everything that the

00:07:58: company is doing that the nonprofit is doing that you work for, doesn't matter.

00:08:02: But generally do I feel like I can get on board with the majority of it.

00:08:07: And part of what a good leader is somebody who helps people see how their work

00:08:12: every day relates to the broader focus and the mission of the organization.

00:08:16: And that's what the middle manager is really meant to do.

00:08:19: You're a communicator, helping inspire and motivate people.

00:08:22: So again, you can wanna do it in a way that doesn't undermine trust and

00:08:25: credibility in the organization, but also doesn't undermine trust for you.

00:08:29: So I like to say, Hey, this is what we're hearing from the company,

00:08:33: this is what those facts are, and you can communicate it in a pretty factual way.

00:08:37: I would resist the urge to editorialize and say here's what the company

00:08:41: says, but I totally disagree with it.

00:08:43: Because you're undermining, for people who might be below you, who

00:08:47: actually might agree with it, you've just lost some truth and credibility,

00:08:50: trust and credibility with them.

00:08:51: Just because people report to you doesn't mean that they're always gonna agree

00:08:54: with you a hundred percent of the time.

00:08:56: So I would much rather work for somebody and work with somebody who I feel like

00:09:00: is an honest broker who's just factual, again, we talked about that yoga part,

00:09:05: even the ups and the downs a little bit.

00:09:07: Then also you think, what are the moments of truth when I so disagree with this,

00:09:12: I have to speak up, or I have to leave the company, or I have to leave this job.

00:09:16: I think we all have to just be clear for ourselves around where are those lines?

00:09:21: What does that mean for you and for everybody, it's different.

00:09:23: That's why I love the coaching work that I do.

00:09:25: 'cause it's different for every person.

00:09:27: But I just think being an honest, even, fair broker is really the best way.

00:09:33: Because that really long term builds trust and credibility.

00:09:36: I always think about we could win every battle or fight every battle if we

00:09:40: want, but what we're really interested in is a long term relationship.

00:09:44: So how do I preserve trust and credibility over time, given that I'm not gonna

00:09:49: always agree or even win every battle, that's really not the main focus.

00:09:53: Yeah.

00:09:53: And also I lose credibility towards my management if I'm

00:09:57: Yeah.

00:09:58: kind of disagreeing.

00:10:00: Yeah.

00:10:00: openly.

00:10:01: Yeah.

00:10:02: Yeah,

00:10:02: Yeah.

00:10:03: Yeah.

00:10:03: So what else is it that you're seeing in coaching these days, and how has

00:10:07: that changed from previous years?

00:10:11: I started coaching, oh boy, about eight or nine years ago.

00:10:14: And I've coached both.

00:10:16: Outside and then also back inside of an organization, and

00:10:20: this was before the pandemic.

00:10:22: So obviously through that a lot has changed about how

00:10:24: people find meaning in work.

00:10:26: Those pendulum keep swinging back and forth between who has more powers that the

00:10:31: bosses or the employees and organizations.

00:10:34: But what I think right now is a lot of people are just experiencing

00:10:37: an immense amount of uncertainty.

00:10:39: And we are uncertain about the state of the world, about the state of the economy

00:10:45: and economic forces and wins that are going in lots of different directions.

00:10:49: Companies are at once rapidly hiring, and then the hiring job market is

00:10:54: really tough and their companies that are still laying people off.

00:10:57: So it's hard for people to predict.

00:10:59: And so a lot of what I work on with people is trying to think about how do

00:11:03: I find groundedness in my own values and in what is really important to me?

00:11:08: How can I mine my previous experience for facts, knowledge, wisdom

00:11:16: that is useful to me in no matter what professional setting I'm in.

00:11:21: And so that's why I relate.

00:11:22: I think you know, a lot of the work around storytelling and communication and how

00:11:28: do you inspire and inform people is so important because that isn't gonna change.

00:11:32: The context might change even with some of the AI tools that people

00:11:36: use increasingly for communication.

00:11:39: It's still not great at telling really human really good connected stories.

00:11:43: And so we still need people who have the capacity to do that.

00:11:46: So it's navigating uncertainty, trying to figure out how do I find more meaning

00:11:51: and work and life in a balanced way that feels, again, that balance for me.

00:11:55: And then how do I really communicate in a way lead and inspire teams through change.

00:12:00: That's really what I'm working on a lot with the clients that I work with now.

00:12:04: So I heard storytelling as well.

00:12:07: Yeah, for sure.

00:12:08: I think that storytelling is one of those innately, inherently really

00:12:13: powerful human things that one of the things that separates humans from

00:12:17: other species.

00:12:18: And if you think about how human knowledge has evolved, it really is always has

00:12:24: been rooted in stories and storytelling.

00:12:26: The whole yoga tradition, for example, was an oral tradition.

00:12:29: It was passed for thousands of years around the stories, the mantras.

00:12:33: Some of the best novels and stories, the stories that are on

00:12:36: the books behind me, those are all through words and storytelling.

00:12:41: Political campaigns are successful when we attach humans and emotions

00:12:46: to facts and policies, right?

00:12:49: Really good branding.

00:12:51: Marketing exercise is really about storytelling.

00:12:54: So for me, one of the most important skills for anybody to learn is really

00:12:59: effective, really good storytelling.

00:13:01: How do you have a narrative arc?

00:13:02: How do you paint a picture for people about how an individual situation

00:13:07: relates to a broader theory or a trend?

00:13:09: How do you capture emotion and imagination rather than just

00:13:13: communicating facts and data?

00:13:15: Yeah.

00:13:16: I like this idea of making sure that the others can create a picture in their mind.

00:13:22: I think that's always a great indicator, whether the story works or not.

00:13:25: Yeah.

00:13:26: When I get a picture, when I get an image, when someone is talking

00:13:30: about something, then it's.

00:13:33: Like some of the beautiful pictures you have behind you.

00:13:36: Yeah.

00:13:36: They, each one of those is a story behind that, I'm sure.

00:13:39: Yeah.

00:13:40: And the interesting thing is yes, yeah, they are, they're the results

00:13:42: of coaching coaching processes.

00:13:44: It's a, it's

00:13:45: a love

00:13:46: that.

00:13:46: I love that

00:13:48: that's, yeah, so it's yeah, it's a really visual story and sometimes

00:13:54: it helps to just use pen and paper to make things more visible.

00:13:58: Yeah, for sure.

00:13:59: Great.

00:13:59: Yeah.

00:14:00: Now, let me ask you that because you're path seems a bit similar to mine where

00:14:07: I worked in corporate for quite a long time, had international roles there, and

00:14:13: then decided to move out, become a coach.

00:14:18: And I'm also working a lot with mindfulness.

00:14:22: My main topic really is Presence and the autonomic nervous system.

00:14:28: So what was your motivation to work as a coach and to leave corporate?

00:14:37: I love hearing about your path, and I'd be, I'll we can talk more about that too.

00:14:41: I think that's always interesting.

00:14:42: I think, for me it really came down to in every role that I've ever had, I

00:14:47: started my career working in US politics.

00:14:50: And I've had some of senior roles at some of the biggest company

00:14:54: names that people have heard of.

00:14:55: And in all of those roles, the work that I found that was most rewarding

00:14:59: and most inspiring to me was working with leaders, both being a leader

00:15:04: and managing a team, but also really helping support, senior leaders.

00:15:08: Not just the CEO and the leader of the whole company, but of really of big teams.

00:15:13: And I loved working with them because I can see that the power of bringing

00:15:17: people together, motivating and inspiring around a goal or business objective

00:15:23: or around a political set of beliefs.

00:15:25: And so for me it was always the work that I just found most inspiring.

00:15:29: And I thought, okay, I've been doing this in an informal way through all

00:15:32: of the communications jobs I've had.

00:15:33: 'cause that's what good communicators often do.

00:15:36: If professionally is we're advising leaders on what to say,

00:15:38: how to say it, when to say it.

00:15:39: And I thought I should actually get some real formal training in this.

00:15:42: And it was when I finally went through the formal coaching, training and

00:15:45: certification that I did many years ago that I realized, oh, I'm not just

00:15:50: learning how to do this for other people.

00:15:51: I'm actually learning it about myself.

00:15:54: I'm learning how to really listen from a place of curiosity, not from my own

00:15:58: sort of narrative and my own sort of

00:16:01: soundtrack.

00:16:01: I'm asking questions and then when I went back in-house after coaching for

00:16:06: several years and I led big teams as I did, I realized that I was bringing

00:16:11: more of a coaching approach to leadership, and I think it resonated.

00:16:15: I got good results.

00:16:16: The data showed that.

00:16:17: So it was just really an interesting thing that you realize

00:16:21: coaching is about relationships.

00:16:23: It's about, helping, people imagine an inspired future aligning their values

00:16:29: with some broader set of goals and actions that they could take in their life.

00:16:33: And, all of us are trying to get better at work.

00:16:35: All of these companies are trying to do hard things.

00:16:37: If it were easy, we would've figured it out already.

00:16:39: So for me, it's the coaching, working with people, helping them to get better.

00:16:44: Often there's a communication aspect to it, but really it's

00:16:46: about that relational piece.

00:16:48: So that's, it really was just more of a continuation of the work that

00:16:51: I really love to do and felt like I was getting some good results doing.

00:16:55: And I love your, when you said that this curiosity and really

00:16:59: asking question and sitting there and listening for, and hearing the

00:17:02: answers, that makes a total difference.

00:17:05: Yeah.

00:17:06: I think we could use more of that in our world today, generally.

00:17:10: Especially the pace that we move at, the tools that all of us, we carry

00:17:14: around these devices, our brains never really evolved to really process

00:17:19: information and the like as fast.

00:17:21: And we've in a way gotten away from our ability to really

00:17:24: discern what is important.

00:17:26: Yeah,

00:17:26: and really discern what sort of inside is aligning with values and where do I

00:17:30: want to go and how do I wanna show up?

00:17:32: Yeah.

00:17:32: Yeah.

00:17:33: And also sometimes I have the impression that was the turning point

00:17:37: in my career when I was traveling a lot and I had a horse at that time

00:17:43: and I had a husband where I still have that husband from that time.

00:17:48: Every time I was somewhere, either I was working in a different country.

00:17:55: I was at the stable with my horse.

00:17:56: I was at home with my husband.

00:17:58: I always had the impression that I was not where I would need to be.

00:18:04: And this really was wearing me out because I was never really in the present moment.

00:18:11: I was always with my thoughts, with my thinking, I was always somewhere

00:18:15: else, always trying to tackle problems, issues, challenges and I never really

00:18:22: experienced the moment that I was living.

00:18:27: Yeah.

00:18:28: Yeah, and it's so interesting 'cause I think that it goes back to what

00:18:32: we started our conversation on.

00:18:33: It's like people would come to yoga or meditation or this mindfulness

00:18:37: presence with the idea of, oh, it's gonna help me work more

00:18:40: quickly, more efficiently, do more.

00:18:41: And it's like that actually is less.

00:18:44: So sometimes you gotta go slow to go fast.

00:18:47: You gotta really be present.

00:18:48: Imagine the creativity and the concentration that one can have and the

00:18:53: outcome that people can get if they just slow a little bit and pay attention.

00:18:57: And I think we've all been in situations where we are trying

00:19:00: to multitask or be distracted or we're anticipating the next thing.

00:19:04: It's wait what's actually just right in front of me?

00:19:06: And I've been on the receiving end of that too.

00:19:08: And you're like, Hey, was that person even really listening to me?

00:19:11: Did they hear me?

00:19:12: And then it just doesn't really get good results over time.

00:19:15: Yeah, for sure.

00:19:16: And we can sense it.

00:19:18: It's so funny because for sure when we pretend to listen to others,

00:19:22: we always think, yeah, I'm there.

00:19:24: And the other person thinks we hear, but we can always sense it.

00:19:27: We can always understand whether the other person is really listening or not.

00:19:31: Yeah.

00:19:33: Yeah, I think in some ways it's one of the double-edged swords

00:19:36: of Zoom and remote connection.

00:19:38: It's so wonderful that you and I are able to have this conversation that way, and

00:19:43: yet I think it's also made it possible for people to be more distracted and

00:19:48: feel like they're half paying attention.

00:19:50: And rather than being really present with somebody, so that's one of the reasons

00:19:54: why all of the conversations around return to work and being in an office

00:19:57: are not, is interesting, but especially as people get a little bit later in

00:20:01: their careers, the people that I work with, the people I know you work with.

00:20:05: It really is about relationships.

00:20:07: It's really about connection, and I think that the longer we go in

00:20:11: our careers, I always try to advise young people, keep investing in

00:20:15: relationships, keep focusing on presence.

00:20:17: Put your phone down, be present with what's in front of you, because

00:20:21: those are the things that are longer term and that those are the ways

00:20:24: that you will evolve your career.

00:20:26: Yeah.

00:20:26: Yeah.

00:20:27: Yeah.

00:20:27: And that's what stays.

00:20:28: I'm sure you have a lot of connections and relationships with

00:20:32: people that you used to work with.

00:20:34: Yeah.

00:20:35: In fact, some of the best connections I have are, professional connections

00:20:38: that were formed before there was even a thing called an iPhone

00:20:43: or Facebook or any of that.

00:20:45: And of course I have great connections from my last job, and I do keep up

00:20:48: with coaching clients I still have.

00:20:50: But I think, gosh, some of the most formative, powerful

00:20:54: professional relationships I have are from, yeah, long ago.

00:20:58: Presence, personal connection.

00:21:00: Yeah.

00:21:00: Yeah.

00:21:01: You worked through a hard communications challenge together or whatever.

00:21:04: Yeah.

00:21:04: Wow.

00:21:05: Yeah.

00:21:06: Now let me come back to your book: Honestly Speaking

00:21:10: honestly, speaking,

00:21:12: Without having read it, and I can't exp expect you to put the

00:21:16: the whole book in to five minutes.

00:21:19: But what is the essence?

00:21:20: What is one idea you want readers to take away from the

00:21:26: book once they've finished it?

00:21:30: I think that it goes back to a little bit of what we touched on at the earlier

00:21:33: part of this conversation, which is, we it, you need to really be honest with

00:21:39: yourself about what am I trying to convey?

00:21:42: Why is this conversation hard?

00:21:44: What is the main point that I want somebody to hear?

00:21:46: And then how do I maximize my chances that they will hear what I want them to hear?

00:21:52: So another way of thinking about it is it doesn't matter what you say.

00:21:55: All that matters is what people hear.

00:21:57: And so my job as a communicator is to try to get the person who's receiving

00:22:01: it have the maximal chance that they're gonna receive what I want them to receive.

00:22:06: I think about, it's why the cover of the book is the way that it is.

00:22:08: I should find a copy and show it.

00:22:10: But it's like a overlapping, text bubbles and I wanna maximize the

00:22:15: overlap between the two of them.

00:22:16: My understanding, your understanding, we're trying to find the maximal overlap.

00:22:20: And so in the book I offer several different short frameworks that

00:22:25: people can use to, that I've seen over my career work really well for

00:22:30: effective communication at work.

00:22:32: How do I communicate effectively?

00:22:34: Be consistent, be open, be real, be educational.

00:22:38: There's a similar framework for how to communicate in your personal life.

00:22:41: We

00:22:42: talk a lot about the power of listening and of listening.

00:22:45: And again, that cold point around curiosity.

00:22:47: Talk about that question that we shared earlier around What's my intent?

00:22:52: Who's my audience?

00:22:52: Talk a lot about how do you understand it's not just, I'm talking to Christine,

00:22:56: but what level of knowledge or sophistication or skill is Christine

00:23:01: bringing to this conversation?

00:23:02: What is she expecting to hear from me?

00:23:04: How might she like to receive what I'm trying to convey?

00:23:08: Those are the kinds of things that we talk about.

00:23:10: And then I just share a bunch of different stories, lessons learned along the way.

00:23:15: Around both doing it in an effective corporate setting way, but also again,

00:23:20: those mindfulness just ways without even using the yoga language really about

00:23:24: trying to just see ourselves more in other people and around trying to regulate our

00:23:28: nervous system so that we are not really reacting from a place of all of our habits

00:23:33: and our deep conditioning or reacting from a place of the, that fight or flight mode.

00:23:39: Sort of how do you.

00:23:40: Just regulate yourself so that you maximize the chances that you

00:23:44: get to the outcome that you want.

00:23:46: And that's a, that's an important point.

00:23:48: That's something that is really important also for my work, is to make sure that

00:23:52: if you're not coming from a place where your nervous system is regulated, you can

00:23:59: never have a really good conversation.

00:24:02: Because you will not be able to say the things you wanna say.

00:24:07: Yeah,

00:24:07: it not come out the way you would like.

00:24:10: Usually when you say something and you're in a stress mode,

00:24:13: then you regret it after that

00:24:14: yeah.

00:24:15: Yeah.

00:24:15: And the people that you work with, do you find that it's both the speaking and the

00:24:19: listening, or do you work with people on find that they're challenged by one or

00:24:24: one more than the other in those moments?

00:24:27: At the moment they're most challenged with finding the right words.

00:24:33: To share what they have to share.

00:24:35: And I think being able to listen and actively listening is one of the things

00:24:41: that they go through with me anyway, because to me that's really fundamental.

00:24:44: Yeah.

00:24:45: to be able to do that.

00:24:48: Yeah,

00:24:49: it's

00:24:49: so important.

00:24:50: It's so hard because we all bring our stories and our conditioning and our

00:24:55: history conditioning that's rooted in our DNA, that isn't even, us un learned.

00:25:00: Yeah,

00:25:02: yeah.

00:25:02: And also for sure, it's

00:25:03: hard.

00:25:04: I think our culture expects us to show up and to demonstrate

00:25:10: what we know and what we think.

00:25:11: So there is this tendency of, I wanna say something I wanna share.

00:25:17: I have to, if I wanna be seen.

00:25:19: Yeah.

00:25:21: I also say that I think one of the things that makes this hard is that,

00:25:24: I believe it's really important to have healthy disagreement

00:25:28: on teams and in organizations.

00:25:30: That's one of the reasons why diverse perspectives and backgrounds is so

00:25:34: important, because I want people to help

00:25:36: think about things that I might have thought about in a

00:25:39: different way, and I get the best ideas from people who disagree.

00:25:42: But we want to disagree in a way that is productive and the way that

00:25:47: we all are, like, it's not personal.

00:25:49: It's about the facts and the knowledge of what we're trying to work on or a project.

00:25:53: And so I think a lot about it, disagreement is not bad,

00:25:56: it's actually quite healthy.

00:25:58: And it means that people feel honest, that they can be vulnerable.

00:26:01: And one of the things I sometimes work on is empathy and connection is really

00:26:05: powerful, but when it blurs into the line of, I'm gonna start assuming this

00:26:10: person's own baggage is my own, and I'm gonna get down into the tunnel

00:26:14: with them, for example, that's not healthy and it's not really, boundaries

00:26:18: as leaders is really important.

00:26:20: And so that, that balance around being with somebody, helping them feel

00:26:26: supported, helping them feel seen and heard using that language, but also

00:26:32: not getting down into the trenches with them such that you can't pull

00:26:34: yourself out and lead other people on the team or have a broader perspective

00:26:38: is is something that's important.

00:26:40: So I see it going both ways at times.

00:26:42: Yeah.

00:26:43: And I just, I think that reminds me of Brené Brown who describes that difference

00:26:47: between being sympathetic and empathetic.

00:26:50: Yeah, totally agree.

00:26:52: Big fan of hers.

00:26:53: Yeah, for sure.

00:26:54: She's informed a lot of my work as well.

00:26:56: Yeah.

00:26:56: So let me ask you a very broad question, Andrew.

00:27:00: What is your vision?

00:27:03: My vision, I think my vision for at least my work and the work that I'm hoping to

00:27:09: share is that I always have wanted to try to make the world better in some way.

00:27:13: And that's why I started my career working in public service.

00:27:17: And I think I've evolved over time thinking about wanting to work

00:27:21: with individuals and people, maybe an organization's trying to make

00:27:25: a difference for sure, but also helping people be their best selves.

00:27:28: Whether they're a leader of an organization whose mission

00:27:31: I believe in, or whether it's helping people on a team be better.

00:27:35: I really feel like the vision for myself is to try to help people

00:27:39: be the best communicators the best, you know that they can be.

00:27:43: And help organizations function in the best way possible.

00:27:46: The work that I do with teams is almost all around how to be high performing

00:27:50: and work effectively as a team.

00:27:52: How do we make sure that we're having that healthy disagreement?

00:27:55: How do we make sure that we're aligned around a common way of working all

00:27:59: in service of a mission that we are here to work on and to meet.

00:28:02: So the vision is just helping people be better communicators,

00:28:06: be better professionals.

00:28:08: Yeah.

00:28:09: And having a better, creating a better relationship through that.

00:28:12: I'm hearing

00:28:13: For sure.

00:28:14: For sure.

00:28:14: Yeah.

00:28:15: I absolutely, yeah, I think that's just, I see communications as

00:28:18: a relational exercise for sure.

00:28:21: Wonderful.

00:28:22: Yeah.

00:28:23: Thank you so much for this communication and

00:28:27: Thank you.

00:28:28: I've so enjoyed it.

00:28:29: I just really thank you.

00:28:30: Appreciate the opportunity.

00:28:33: This was Lead.

00:28:34: Well, now what is the one thing that you're taking away from this episode?

00:28:38: Please share in the comments below and do share the podcast with your friends

00:28:42: and family, but only if you like it.