Why Asking for Help Feels So Hard. Mentoring, Grief, and the Power of Being There

00:00:00: A big challenge is that a lot of people are afraid to, as I say, step

00:00:04: out of the closet and ask for help.

00:00:07: Extend your hand and say.

00:00:09: I think I need help.

00:00:11: And then somebody needs to be able to step to the plate to be able to

00:00:15: say, I'll, let me walk beside you.

00:00:19: Hi, and welcome to Lead Well.

00:00:26: Today I'm joined by Doug Lawrence.

00:00:31: Doug, you are a founder of TalentC® and you are one of the most

00:00:36: experienced mentoring practitioners that I've ever come across.

00:00:41: You're not only mentoring yourself, you're also teaching and educating

00:00:47: mentors and but that's not the most impressive thing about you.

00:00:53: The most impressive thing is probably your five global awards

00:00:57: for your most current book Grief.

00:01:00: And I'm really curious to learn more about that and your thoughts about

00:01:05: it because as I mentioned in our prerecording conversation, I have lost

00:01:11: quite a few family members as well, and not all of them were two legged.

00:01:17: There were also four legged family members that I lost, and I'm curious

00:01:21: to hear your thoughts about that.

00:01:24: So let's start with this question about mentoring, though.

00:01:29: So when I hear mentoring, today, what do you think that is most misunderstood by

00:01:38: what a mentor is and what mentoring is?

00:01:42: I think that part of it is, there's confusion and still confusion

00:01:47: around coaching versus mentoring.

00:01:50: So the definition of mentoring is a two-way trusted relationship where

00:01:54: both the mentor and the mentee are going to learn and grow together.

00:01:58: So that's the definition.

00:02:00: And what I've found is that sometimes coaching is not the answer and it's

00:02:07: actually mentoring because for me the approach I take is I try to get

00:02:13: inside the person's thought process to be able to get them turned around

00:02:19: and change their behavior patterns, so that we can get to the root

00:02:24: cause of what's the issue at hand.

00:02:29: And so that's the, call it the difference or what mentoring is.

00:02:35: Okay.

00:02:36: And so do you think that a lot of coaches are actually doing mentoring or that

00:02:41: a lot of mentors are actually coaches?

00:02:43: Because you said there is this confusion between the two

00:02:47: and that's a good point, is that there are coaches that are mentoring

00:02:53: but may not be, don't wanna call it anything other than coaching.

00:02:57: And there's mentors that are doing a little bit of coaching and then we throw

00:03:02: into the pot the aspect of mentoring as a part, as part being part of the

00:03:09: support structure for mental health.

00:03:12: Okay.

00:03:14: Okay.

00:03:14: So that's closer, that brings it closer to therapy then does it?

00:03:19: It's, yeah.

00:03:20: You have to, as a mentor who is working in that space, you have to be very

00:03:25: mindful of where the line in the sand is and where you need to refer who

00:03:32: you're working with, you may suggest to them that they might be better served

00:03:37: if they were to go to see a counselor.

00:03:41: The big problem we run into is counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists,

00:03:46: they're all working so hard.

00:03:48: They have, they don't have the capacity to take anyone on or

00:03:53: to provide that interim support.

00:03:55: And that's where the mentor who you know, is working with a person to

00:04:02: from a mental health perspective, that's where that comes into play.

00:04:06: Okay.

00:04:08: And now I also know that you're the only Journey Mentor certified globally.

00:04:13: So what does that mean and what does that add to the traditional mentoring?

00:04:20: It's, there's not a lot of certified mentors out there.

00:04:24: There's lots of certified coaches.

00:04:27: And I partnered with a gentleman in Calgary, Alberta, Canada to

00:04:31: create a certification for mentors.

00:04:35: And one of the elements is the Journey Mentor.

00:04:39: And in order to be, to get through that process, there's

00:04:44: case studies that have to be done.

00:04:46: You have to log so many hours and you have to recertify every two years and all.

00:04:53: Things that you would expect from a certified person.

00:04:57: Now let's come back to what I started with this book about

00:05:01: grief, because how does that

00:05:06: relate.

00:05:07: So what really led you to write about grief when first you

00:05:12: published two books about mentoring?

00:05:15: The second book You Are Not Alone was taking a look at mentoring in its

00:05:23: initial stages, but it was more so about how can mentoring help people who are

00:05:29: struggling with post-traumatic stress.

00:05:32: And then book number three, Grief, The Silent Pandemic, took us deeper into,

00:05:40: what could mentoring actually do to help somebody who is going through, or who

00:05:46: is on their journey of grief and what, what are some of the things that can

00:05:51: be put into practice to, to be able to provide that assistance to that person.

00:05:57: Now what is it?

00:05:58: How would you recommend we approach someone who has just lost a

00:06:04: significant one, person in his life?

00:06:08: The most important thing and the most important thing you can do is to be there

00:06:16: and in a purely non-judgmental capacity.

00:06:21: And looking at it from making sure that you're being confidential in

00:06:27: the conversations and stuff, but the most important thing is that

00:06:31: you need to be able to listen and hear what the person is saying.

00:06:36: And then from that aspect, you can decide how may I be of service to this person?

00:06:42: What are some of the things that I can do?

00:06:46: I, I belong to a number of bereavement support groups.

00:06:51: And that's the big thing that everybody in that, those groups is looking for

00:06:57: is they're looking for the aspect of, I just want somebody to talk to.

00:07:03: And I don't expect you to solve my issues or anything like that, but I just, I'm

00:07:08: looking for that support that is, is, is missing in my journey to recover.

00:07:15: Is there a difference in bereavement and grief for people who are on their

00:07:21: own versus those who live with a family?

00:07:24: What is, do you know?

00:07:26: That's,

00:07:27: yeah, that's a good question.

00:07:28: And I personally, I don't think there is that much of a difference.

00:07:34: Having said that, there could be counselors out there that would say that

00:07:38: I'm, I am, maybe I'm missing the boat.

00:07:41: But for me, the difference between the two is there is probably a

00:07:48: difference, but it's not that significant that, we can't do what

00:07:53: we're doing in order to help people.

00:07:55: And I think the important part that I learned about people

00:07:59: who are grieving is that

00:08:02: I need to not only offer my help, but I need to make really concise suggestions

00:08:09: of what I'm going to do and ask them again and again because it's so hard for

00:08:14: them to reach out at that point in time.

00:08:17: Yeah, that's, that's the toughest part.

00:08:19: And I know I went through that myself with the loss of my wife, Deborah, that I

00:08:25: really struggled to find the courage to, to reach out, to get professional help.

00:08:34: 'cause, I, that's what I really, truly needed was the professional help

00:08:40: I needed the counselor, the social worker, somebody who is professionally

00:08:45: trained, because I couldn't drive past the hospital where Deborah passed away.

00:08:52: She was in the pallet of unit.

00:08:55: I couldn't drive past there without breaking down and crying

00:09:00: on, on the side of the road.

00:09:04: 'cause I didn't know how to handle the grief.

00:09:07: The, what I was feeling it was an abnormal sense of loss and just,

00:09:14: there was so many different things that were going through my mind.

00:09:18: And I finally, I went and I got professional help and it

00:09:22: made a world of difference.

00:09:23: And what was it, if I may ask, what were the, was it something someone said to

00:09:29: you or something you did, or some, you changed your thinking, or what was it

00:09:37: that was helpful to you in that moment?

00:09:40: It actually, it took a period of time in order for us to get

00:09:44: to where we needed to get to.

00:09:47: But it was, the, there's different modalities that a

00:09:53: counselor, social worker had used.

00:09:56: And we, for me, that's what she actually had put into practice was the rapid

00:10:03: eye movement exercise, right, eMDR.

00:10:07: I also did what was it?

00:10:08: IADC induced after death, something, I can't remember the total of total

00:10:15: apart, but just different ways of dealing and processing and getting,

00:10:20: getting my head into a space where I'm actually processing

00:10:25: what, what's taking place.

00:10:27: And that was, that was important to me to be able to do that.

00:10:32: Wow.

00:10:33: And how could a mentor help in that situation as well?

00:10:37: Because I think that's an another angle that you're coming from.

00:10:42: It.

00:10:42: It is.

00:10:43: And the big thing how the mentor comes into play is that they're

00:10:48: there to provide additional support.

00:10:52: But what's important is that they're also the bridge between when I go for, so

00:10:59: today I go and I see my psychologist, and because of their schedule and that I can't

00:11:06: get back in to see them for six months.

00:11:09: What am I supposed to do?

00:11:10: And that's where the mentor is the one that can say, let's sit down

00:11:15: and have a conversation, let's go for a walk or, is there anything you

00:11:18: would like me to, to help you with?

00:11:21: Is there, all those elements and the big thing I think that a lot of people forget.

00:11:28: Is that if you make a commitment to someone who is grieving,

00:11:32: and for that matter, just about anyone, if you make a commitment

00:11:35: to them, you should follow through.

00:11:37: No that's not totally true.

00:11:39: You must follow through is probably closer to the truth.

00:11:44: Yeah.

00:11:44: Because otherwise I just recently had a conversation with a guest,

00:11:48: Mr. J. And he said because otherwise it would feel like betrayal if

00:11:52: someone promised you to be there for you and then not show up.

00:11:58: Yeah.

00:11:58: 'cause I, I had that where we did a celebration of life when Deborah

00:12:02: passed away and we had, I had, there was people that came that,

00:12:07: I hadn't seen in, gosh, years.

00:12:10: And they came and they said, we should go for a coffee.

00:12:14: And coffee never happened.

00:12:17: Or we should go for a lunch and lunch never happened.

00:12:20: And you go, it was important enough to say it, now you need to live that

00:12:27: and you need to follow through on it.

00:12:30: But it, it, it never ha never happened.

00:12:33: And they would have needed to take the initiative, not you reach out to them.

00:12:38: Exactly.

00:12:39: And because I think, we've all had those situations where, we've had

00:12:45: people that have said, I'll meet you for coffee, and it never happens.

00:12:49: And they don't understand what that, what the impact of not

00:12:54: doing something, what that does.

00:12:56: Now your title, the book title is Grief, the Silent Pandemic.

00:13:01: So how

00:13:05: ubiquitous do you think grief really is?

00:13:08: How many people are grieving at a certain moment in time?

00:13:16: If you looked at it globally, it's, the numbers are staggering.

00:13:21: There are thousands of individuals and every day my path crosses somebody who

00:13:28: is going through the grieving process.

00:13:31: Every single day.

00:13:32: So you just take that, 'cause I've had it where I've gone to the bank

00:13:36: to do some banking and the person standing beside me says, oh, John

00:13:41: passed away just the other day.

00:13:43: And you're going now what do I do?

00:13:45: 'Cause here's somebody who,

00:13:48: who is obviously starting their journey and starting that struggling process.

00:13:53: But where I came, the title of the book, Grief, The Silent

00:13:58: Pandemic, was all the stuff we went through and experience with COVID.

00:14:03: It's much the same.

00:14:05: When you take a look at it, it's much the same as to the things we

00:14:11: are experiencing today with grief.

00:14:14: 'Cause it's at a magnitude of, being equal to COVID.

00:14:22: The two, when you take a look, they're very similar, number wise, impact wise.

00:14:27: But we don't, we did all the fanfare and everything else for COVID, but we

00:14:33: didn't, we were not doing that for grief.

00:14:36: And I guess my point behind the book was, and why not?

00:14:42: Now, when, now speaking about the other side, when you work as a

00:14:48: mentor for someone who is grieving.

00:14:55: I, I know from my personal experience that it can be really also emotional.

00:15:01: So there is this capacity that we have to hold the space for

00:15:06: others, especially at this depth.

00:15:09: So what do you do and what do you advise mentors do to protect their own wellbeing?

00:15:16: They have to make sure that they go through a clearing so that they clear

00:15:22: that negative energy and move it along so that they do, number one, have space.

00:15:29: And they save space for themselves.

00:15:31: Just as importantly, they can save space for the people that

00:15:35: they're trying to work with, to help and all those sorts of things.

00:15:40: But it is really important to make sure, and that's where the mentor and

00:15:44: like I look at myself, that's where I wear more than one hat, because

00:15:50: I know that if I'm going to have a conversation with Christine, because

00:15:54: she's lost a loved one, I know that I need to create special space for

00:16:00: her, but I also have to create space for myself to make sure that I've

00:16:05: got the capacity to be able to help.

00:16:08: Otherwise, kinda, I'm letting you down if I don't create

00:16:13: or have that space in place.

00:16:16: And the big thing is as a mentor, you wanna be able to create a safe place

00:16:22: for those conversations to take place.

00:16:25: For yourself and the person you're, yeah, mentoring.

00:16:29: Now, what would you say are the inner capacities that I would need as a mentor?

00:16:36: Before I even can learn the techniques or is, can anyone become a mentor

00:16:41: or are there specific capabilities, skills that I would need to have?

00:16:47: The most important thing is the ability to listen and hear and be non-judgmental.

00:16:55: And I think, not, I think, I know that anyone who has that capacity and is

00:17:01: willing to be of service to others, you can be a mentor that works in the grief

00:17:08: space without any any further dialogue.

00:17:12: It's, because I, I look at the skill sets required for a mentor, for,

00:17:19: say, a journey mentor are much the same as what you're looking for

00:17:24: in your leaders in organizations.

00:17:26: So the, when you take a look and break it down, leadership and mentoring almost

00:17:33: go hand in hand lock step and lockstep.

00:17:39: You know how, however you wanna look at it.

00:17:41: But a lot of the key characteristics of a great mentor are also the characteristics

00:17:49: of, of a great leader and a great mentor.

00:17:55: So you're saying listening and hearing what the other person says.

00:17:59: Is there anything else that, that you feel is important for both?

00:18:03: Compassion.

00:18:04: And we get that from our leaders as well.

00:18:07: Compassion, but the big thing is listening and hearing are probably

00:18:13: the most important pieces and the capacity, but also the willingness to

00:18:22: want to help this person get through.

00:18:26: Because the grief journey is a long one.

00:18:29: And they're, they're definitely going to have to be prepared for that.

00:18:34: To be able to help facilitate the person's journey no matter what the situation is.

00:18:43: So what I'm also hearing is that caring for the other person is

00:18:50: probably something that is required.

00:18:55: Yes, it is.

00:18:56: Yeah most definitely.

00:18:57: It's not for everyone, it's just, it's definitely not for everyone to you in your

00:19:05: heart, mind, and soul you wanna help, but yet you're, you don't have the capacity

00:19:11: or you're not, you haven't reached a stage yet where you feel comfortable

00:19:17: having those type of conversations.

00:19:20: Like for me, I find it challenging, but I also find it to be very

00:19:26: rewarding when you're able to help somebody take that first couple steps

00:19:32: on a healing journey and who will turn around and say I need help.

00:19:37: And that's, that's a big or a big challenge is that a lot of people

00:19:42: are afraid to, as I say, step out of the closet and ask for help.

00:19:47: Extend your hand and say.

00:19:49: I think I need help.

00:19:51: And then somebody needs to be able to step to the plate to be able to

00:19:55: say, I'll, let me walk beside you.

00:19:59: Yeah.

00:20:00: Because asking for help feels really hard and I've experienced it, not

00:20:09: with grief, but with my burnout.

00:20:13: And when I turned around and asked for help, it was the most

00:20:17: difficult thing for me to do.

00:20:19: Turned out it was the bravest I could do, but it felt really

00:20:23: vulnerable at that time.

00:20:26: And there's stigmatism that's attached with that in a lot of cases where, you

00:20:30: know, especially from the aspect of dealing with mental health and grief, and

00:20:36: that is that your peers and people that are supposed to be there to help you,

00:20:42: support you and all that sort of thing.

00:20:44: All they care is, suck it up, butter cup them and get going.

00:20:50: Yeah.

00:20:51: And sometimes I don't worry about what you think about it.

00:20:54: Sometimes I feel it's because they're afraid, more than anything else.

00:21:01: Yeah.

00:21:01: So true.

00:21:02: So true.

00:21:03: And it, that's a good point that you've raised because it takes us back to, I,

00:21:09: I don't know what to say or how to say it, so I'm not going to say anything.

00:21:14: And it's the challenge that people experience with being comfortable enough

00:21:20: to be able to say, I'm not quite sure what to say in this particular, can you gimme

00:21:25: some guidance, to help me move along?

00:21:29: Because I went through some of that where

00:21:34: I had people come to me and say, why is it so difficult?

00:21:37: It's, and I said, you have to think of the outcome of some of your conversations.

00:21:43: It may not be as rosy as what you tend to think it is.

00:21:48: So it's a matter of taking the time and asking the questions and caring

00:21:54: and being that nurturing mindset.

00:21:57: So there's all those pieces to that puzzle that we need to

00:22:02: be mindful and cognizant of.

00:22:06: And sometimes I also feel that people who want to help the, they have a

00:22:14: really high threshold because they think they need to know what to say and

00:22:21: what to do instead of just as, as you just said, be there and listen and you

00:22:27: will hear what the other person needs.

00:22:29: You don't have to know upfront.

00:22:32: No.

00:22:33: And it, I hate to make it sound so simplistic, just being able

00:22:39: to listen and hear and being able to, to reach out and say I'm here.

00:22:44: I'll, let me walk beside you.

00:22:47: And just to be able to do that, is going to, potentially it's a

00:22:54: life altering process that you're, that you're going on with somebody

00:23:01: who needs you to walk beside them.

00:23:04: Wow.

00:23:04: That's very profound.

00:23:08: Now to round up our conversation.

00:23:12: I have a question for you.

00:23:15: What is your vision for this world and for the work you're doing?

00:23:25: I number one is that my goal for the world is to be able to make it a better

00:23:34: place to be and to, if I can change just one person's life by what it is that

00:23:42: I do, then to me that's a good thing.

00:23:45: That's a positive thing.

00:23:47: And I think that we need to do more of that.

00:23:53: That the world is in a position or a place today that we need

00:23:59: to do more than what we are

00:24:03: and to listen more and to hear.

00:24:06: The other.

00:24:07: Wow.

00:24:08: Thank you.

00:24:08: Thank you so much.

00:24:10: Thank you for everything you're doing and bringing relief to those in grief,

00:24:15: and I'm very happy to hear that you got the support you needed when you lost your

00:24:21: wife and I, for me, there is this, having lost also five family members, there is

00:24:32: always this missing them, but at least now I can remember the good times that we

00:24:40: had together and the laughters that we had together and all those wonderful moments.

00:24:45: So I hope this is the same for you as well.

00:24:50: Thank you.

00:24:52: This was Lead.

00:24:53: Well, now what is the one thing that you're taking away from this episode?

00:24:57: Please share in the comments below and do share the podcast with your friends

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