Ep 112. Layered Leadership: Why Creativity Belongs in the C-Suite

00:00:05: Definitely that one took me a while, because it, when you're young and you're

00:00:08: hard charging and you're not really thinking about those things, right?

00:00:11: You think you're indestructible.

00:00:12: And then for me personally I had, I hit a wall and I found out a bit of

00:00:17: the hard way that I had to take care of myself or I was never gonna make it.

00:00:23: Hi, and welcome to Lead Well!

00:00:31: Today I'm really pleased to welcome Lawrence R. Armstrong to the show.

00:00:37: Larry is the chairman and former CEO of Ware Malcomb, a global organization, he

00:00:44: helped build and scale over four decades.

00:00:47: And Larry, you're also the New York Times bestselling author of Layered

00:00:52: Leadership, and I can see that behind you.

00:00:56: So what I appreciate about your work, Larry, is really how deeply human it is.

00:01:03: You don't talk about leadership as a checklist or a title, you really talk

00:01:08: about it as something that is lived.

00:01:12: And as a practice that blends not only strategy, but also creativity and

00:01:18: relationships and personal clarity.

00:01:22: And so in this conversation, I would love to explore how leaders can navigate

00:01:27: complexity without losing themselves.

00:01:30: Why imagination matters more than ever at the top, and how

00:01:34: leadership depth develops, long before anyone hands you a role.

00:01:40: Larry, it's great to have you here.

00:01:41: Welcome.

00:01:43: Thank you so much.

00:01:43: I really appreciate it, Christine.

00:01:45: It's great to be here and look forward to our conversation.

00:01:48: Larry, you've led a fast growing global organization, as we just

00:01:52: heard for four decades, and you describe leadership as layered.

00:01:59: So when you look at today's leaders, what layer do you see

00:02:04: most underdeveloped right now?

00:02:07: Oh wow.

00:02:08: Usually it's in the way of learning how to empower and to delegate and to bring up

00:02:17: people behind you, such as a number two.

00:02:20: I talk a lot in the book about having a number two, somebody that you're training,

00:02:25: that you're delegating to, that you are

00:02:27: empowering to help you build the business, but also relieve you

00:02:33: of some of the day-to-day in the weeds type of responsibilities.

00:02:39: And so to me that's one of the biggest things I see people struggle with is

00:02:44: giving away a little bit of control for the benefit of the company.

00:02:49: Yeah.

00:02:50: And what do you think is the reason behind that?

00:02:52: Is it they're anxious to lose their position?

00:02:57: Are they anxious to lose control, as you said?

00:03:00: Or don't they even think about it?

00:03:03: Yeah, I think I think there's a good reason behind it.

00:03:07: And it's something that needs to be coached and trained because most of us

00:03:13: go into a profession that they go to school and study for and apprentice in

00:03:19: and in, in my case, architecture, right?

00:03:22: I'm an architect and go to school to become an architect and learn how to

00:03:27: design and put a building together and all the technical aspects of that.

00:03:32: So if you do a good job, you get promoted and then all of a sudden what you're

00:03:35: doing is managing people and leading people which is not what you went

00:03:39: to school for, and it's a completely different job and one that you're not

00:03:44: maybe necessarily well trained to do.

00:03:47: So I think a lot of us fall into leadership roles, but maybe aren't that

00:03:53: well prepared to actually do the job.

00:03:56: Even though we intend well and certainly are ambitious.

00:04:01: Most of us may not have that skillset fully developed.

00:04:05: And I think there is a little bit,

00:04:06: so then when you are unsure of yourself in a new role, you tend to have insecurities.

00:04:14: And so if you have insecurities, you tend to hold on to every single thing and maybe

00:04:20: not delegate appropriately or empower the people that you're leading properly.

00:04:27: And so I think that's a very common kind of a scenario that happens.

00:04:32: And you touched on a really interesting point when I was working in for an

00:04:35: American company, what we usually did, or what the management there usually did is

00:04:40: they looked at individual contributors, especially in sales, that was really

00:04:45: prevalent, and then they promoted those individual contributors into the

00:04:50: management roles or the leader roles.

00:04:52: And as you said, they had a personality that were great at being successful

00:04:59: on an individual basis, but they had not the skillset and also not the

00:05:03: education to work with people there.

00:05:06: So my question to you now is what signals tell you that someone is leadership

00:05:14: ready before they are in that role?

00:05:19: Yeah.

00:05:20: They tend to in my business, you do have to work as a team all the time, no matter

00:05:25: what your role is in the organization.

00:05:28: So I think those that, you know, have shown a natural ability to pull a

00:05:33: team together for the benefit of the client, work well with the client,

00:05:37: work well with contractors, and all the different consultants in terms

00:05:41: of leading a successful project,

00:05:44: I think that, there are aspects.

00:05:46: We have the same thing in our kind of business, we have individual performers

00:05:50: that perform at a very high level, but only when, mostly when they're

00:05:55: producing their piece of the project.

00:05:58: Then we have others that come up and are very inclusive in the process and build

00:06:03: the team and the enthusiasm on the team,

00:06:06: and they have a very excited client, they have a very successful project, and

00:06:11: the team likes working with this leader.

00:06:13: You see some natural leadership qualities that tend to come out.

00:06:17: And so usually what happens is if we see a person like that, we want to

00:06:23: understand what their ambitions are and their goals for their career.

00:06:27: And then we focus on that person and help them develop those skills

00:06:30: that they need to go further.

00:06:32: And so we have a robust mentoring and coaching program available to

00:06:37: our people to help them get there and get coached up on areas where

00:06:42: they may not be as well trained.

00:06:46: Yeah.

00:06:46: Wow.

00:06:46: Yeah.

00:06:48: And I like the idea that you're saying that in your area, you are working as

00:06:53: a team, or everyone is working as a team and in a team, quite naturally.

00:06:57: And Yes, then it shows whether you get followers because as a

00:07:02: leader you have to have those followers or you don't, so... yeah.

00:07:06: Very natural way there.

00:07:07: Yeah.

00:07:07: Now you talk about layered leaderships.

00:07:09: What are those layers that you're talking about?

00:07:12: As architects, and I use the word layers because it's the

00:07:16: way I think about the world.

00:07:17: As architects, we design buildings and layers.

00:07:20: And space and lighting and technical aspects of a, of a building all in layers.

00:07:28: And I also think that way when I'm producing my art.

00:07:32: My art is very abstract and I'm specifically studying over a

00:07:36: long period of time this idea of conceptual layers in the environment

00:07:39: and sound and thought and light.

00:07:42: And the same thing, I apply that to the different skill

00:07:46: sets required for leadership.

00:07:48: And I, I equate it to what I call whole brain thinking.

00:07:52: 'Cause many of us think of ourselves as left brain or right

00:07:55: brain or left brain thinkers.

00:07:58: And, we all have a tendency one way or another, but I tend to encourage

00:08:03: people to develop whole brain thinking, so that if there's some area that

00:08:09: you maybe aren't as strong in, you work to develop those strengths.

00:08:14: You tend to build your career and your life around your strengths, which is fine.

00:08:18: But if you wanna be a really well-rounded leader and lead a team so that you

00:08:24: understand the whole aspect of the business, then you need to develop

00:08:28: those areas where you're less strong.

00:08:30: And this whole brain idea of bringing creativity to leadership and... so the

00:08:37: concept I think has really worked for me.

00:08:40: I use several examples and what metaphors throughout the book

00:08:43: to demonstrate those things.

00:08:45: Those ideas.

00:08:46: Can you share a moment where imagination and not analysis

00:08:50: changed the business outcome?

00:08:52: Yeah, there's been several times where we applied, an idea where we saw a need

00:09:00: in the marketplace that wasn't being addressed by our competition or even

00:09:04: by us and that our clients needed.

00:09:07: And we've, I also I should say, rely on certain business books that I

00:09:14: talk about in the book, and one of them was called Blue Ocean Strategy.

00:09:18: And that's really what this book talked about and we've used quite a bit.

00:09:23: And so as an executive team we tend to brainstorm on how we can

00:09:31: do better for our clients and set ourselves apart from our competition.

00:09:35: And so we're always coming up with innovative ideas about how to do that.

00:09:40: And one idea was we are experts in the design of giant warehouse

00:09:45: buildings and distribution centers for corporate America.

00:09:50: And land is short and in certain, in urban areas.

00:09:54: And so we developed a prototype to go multi-story in terms of warehouse

00:09:59: space, which is very unusual.

00:10:02: And our clients really love that.

00:10:04: And because of a lot of the e-commerce needs of being close to homes and

00:10:10: quick delivery, as we've all seen, that there wasn't space for giant

00:10:15: warehouses in, in the cities.

00:10:17: So we developed this concept of and prototype that we developed on our own

00:10:22: for multi-story industrial buildings and our clients loved it, and it set us apart.

00:10:28: And so it's one idea, and that's very specific to our industry.

00:10:32: But the idea is the idea.

00:10:35: When you have a collaborative, innovative mindset on your team and

00:10:43: you're up against tough competition you can sometimes identify an advantage

00:10:50: based on the strength of your company.

00:10:51: It always has to be on the, based on what you're already strong at.

00:10:55: To innovate and come up with ideas that the the marketplace will accept and that

00:11:01: would set you apart from your competition.

00:11:05: I like the idea that you also say that the C-suite is where creativity belongs to.

00:11:11: So it needs to sit there.

00:11:13: Because I have seen several occasions where there were then,

00:11:19: like events, creative events, but it was not inherent in the

00:11:24: business, in the day-to-day business.

00:11:26: But where do you see leaders most misunderstanding creativity?

00:11:33: Yeah, I think that it's really a cultural issue in a company.

00:11:37: You have to as you said, it's not an event driven thing.

00:11:40: It's more of an everyday cultural phenomenon in your company you

00:11:45: infuse this idea of collaboration.

00:11:49: And where it's a team building idea.

00:11:53: It's where we set the company up as one team where we're always

00:11:56: working on solutions and anyone can come up with a solution.

00:12:01: And we build on each other's ideas as opposed to compete

00:12:04: with ideas against each other.

00:12:06: And that's a, there's a big difference there because if you are open and

00:12:10: you throw an idea out and somebody else can improve that idea and then

00:12:14: pretty soon everybody participates.

00:12:17: Then this idea becomes maybe something else entirely, but it's a much

00:12:21: better solution that you can pursue.

00:12:24: We encourage this, idea all the way up through the company,

00:12:27: not just at the C-Suite.

00:12:29: The whole entire company is encouraged to think creatively about our business and

00:12:35: how we can improve ourselves all the time.

00:12:38: And what I'm hearing as well is that also fosters and emphasizes the idea that

00:12:45: curiosity is something that is needed.

00:12:49: What, or how can leaders design the environment so that curiosity is

00:12:58: rewarded rather than seeming risky?

00:13:03: Yeah, exactly.

00:13:04: And that's a big, a great point.

00:13:06: We have to you have to create an environment where people are

00:13:11: encouraged to offer up ideas that they think will improve the company.

00:13:17: And so we have a system in our company, and I started it many

00:13:21: years ago during a recession.

00:13:23: It was called WM 3.0.

00:13:25: Every person in the company was encouraged to submit ideas related to

00:13:31: several categories of our business.

00:13:33: And we got over a thousand ideas.

00:13:36: And it was amazing.

00:13:38: And we put groups together, little subcommittees to develop these

00:13:42: ideas and prioritize them, figure out which ones we were gonna

00:13:45: implement, which ones we weren't.

00:13:48: Some were very fast and easy to implement and we just went ahead and did 'em.

00:13:51: And then some were longer term that took a little bit of a shift

00:13:55: within our company and we developed those on a more long term basis.

00:14:00: At the end of the day, these things, these ideas really improved the company

00:14:03: a lot and pushed us forward a lot.

00:14:06: And people throughout the organization got to participate and were acknowledged

00:14:12: for their participation and their ideas.

00:14:15: And so we've kept that program going.

00:14:17: It's been going for, 18 years or something like that.

00:14:22: So we've provide, different versions of it.

00:14:25: And we're in the midst of one right now.

00:14:27: We always get great ideas and it always helps the company.

00:14:30: And so it's just a cultural phenomenon where people know that

00:14:35: their ideas are valued and and it's been proven to help the company.

00:14:40: Now that made me curious because I would love to learn more about the

00:14:43: actual details of that, because, what are you doing there to prevent

00:14:48: group think and bias in those ideas?

00:14:51: So how do you collect them as an initial step and what are the steps

00:14:55: then in the process and progress of identifying what are the ideas that you're

00:15:00: actually putting into practice then?

00:15:04: Yeah.

00:15:04: What happens is the ideas are simply submitted so they're raw by an individual.

00:15:10: There is a, in the different categories there is a subcommittee,

00:15:16: a workshop committee assigned to every one of those categories.

00:15:21: And the committee is based up of a diverse group of people from around

00:15:25: the company, different departments, so they can discuss it and talk about

00:15:29: it and decide if they think, which ones are maybe the, they think are

00:15:34: either easiest to implement or would help the company the most or whatever.

00:15:38: So it has to get through that committee,

00:15:41: and then that committee makes their recommendation of their top

00:15:44: three or four to the executives.

00:15:47: And then the executives will maybe guide them a little bit, whatever they think.

00:15:52: And then they will

00:15:54: be assigned to develop those ideas and make them into reality.

00:15:58: And then implement them.

00:16:00: And implementation obviously is a huge part of this.

00:16:03: Ideas are great, but you have to make 'em happen.

00:16:05: And, and so it's been a bit of a process.

00:16:08: It's also evolved over time, because as we've gotten a lot bigger, you

00:16:13: have to scale an idea like that so that you don't get bogged down.

00:16:17: But it's worked out really well for us.

00:16:19: And again, it's a great way to engage people, get people excited, yet, make

00:16:24: people feel valued in the company and show that their ideas could become change

00:16:30: within our company, which was great.

00:16:32: Yeah.

00:16:32: It's also a great way of making them feel seen and appreciated,

00:16:36: a hundred percent yes.

00:16:38: Yeah, it's been really fun.

00:16:39: Wow.

00:16:40: Oh, that's that's

00:16:41: just one, one thing we do, but it's been very effective

00:16:44: I would say.

00:16:45: Wow, I think so.

00:16:47: So I from what I'm hearing, your working environment and that

00:16:51: company is also very healthy.

00:16:54: And I know that you're also put a lot of emphasis into wellness as a leader and

00:17:00: how to make sure that you can I always say be productive in a sustainable way.

00:17:07: So what is it that you personally are doing to keep yourself healthy?

00:17:14: Yeah.

00:17:14: I had to, I've had to work for a long time on this because I wasn't very good at it.

00:17:18: And we're in an inherently stressful business that requires long hours

00:17:23: and imbalance in your life at times.

00:17:26: And that's just the nature of our business.

00:17:29: Understanding that we've tried to emphasize balance in people's lives.

00:17:34: We've talked a lot about that.

00:17:35: We've encouraged, we've developed a lot of programs in our

00:17:39: company to help people do that.

00:17:41: Just both from a, company fitness kind of a thing, health and fitness, company

00:17:47: outings, different, things like that.

00:17:50: But for myself, I've always emphasized, I wrote a personal health

00:17:55: manifesto and it's in the book.

00:17:57: And it goes along with my personal financial manifesto

00:18:01: as well, financial health.

00:18:03: But I've worked a long time on this and knocking down the idea

00:18:07: that, you don't have time to work out and exercise, you do,

00:18:10: and you must, and it's a, we're in a long career here.

00:18:15: To perform at your highest level, you've gotta take care of yourself at

00:18:18: all times and eat right and exercise.

00:18:22: I, over time I've developed a very good exercise routine.

00:18:28: I combined cardio and weight training and Pilates that I do

00:18:32: every week, several times a week.

00:18:35: And, i've changed my diet over time.

00:18:37: Really incrementally tried to do better with that.

00:18:41: And some vitamins and supplements, that sort of thing, drinking water,

00:18:45: and then just taking enough time to balance, what I work life with

00:18:50: personal life and relaxation.

00:18:52: And so all of those things I think are very important for maintaining

00:18:58: better performance at your job.

00:19:01: Not falling into the trap of, workaholic type behavior and which

00:19:06: is easy to do in our business because it's, like I said it's a demanding

00:19:10: kind of a business and it, and many, obviously we're not unique in that,

00:19:14: but architecture definitely is that.

00:19:16: And so you just have to be, disciplined, if you can be disciplined and again,

00:19:20: creative and responsive to who you are, yourself you can be successful doing that.

00:19:26: And I, it's a big, it's a very important part of this whole

00:19:29: thing, this layered thinking.

00:19:31: Yeah.

00:19:32: Yeah.

00:19:33: So when you look back at your own leadership journey, which layer,

00:19:41: and you just mentioned, wellness is probably one layer that it was

00:19:45: a bit harder to learn for you.

00:19:46: So which layer would you say took you the longest to learn and why?

00:19:52: Definitely that one took me a while, because it, when you're young and you're

00:19:56: hard charging and you're not really thinking about those things, right?

00:19:59: You think you're indestructible.

00:20:00: And then for me personally I had, I hit a wall and I found out a bit of

00:20:05: the hard way that I had to take care of myself or I was never gonna make it.

00:20:10: Yeah, that was a hard lesson for me.

00:20:12: I think also I went through my own journey in terms of understanding different

00:20:17: people's motivations and where they were coming from and what they wanted to do

00:20:23: and what they wanted to achieve versus maybe what I wanted to achieve or what

00:20:28: I wanted, and so I think I had to learn that, hey, not everybody thinks like me.

00:20:32: Not everybody has the same ambitions as me or motivation as me.

00:20:38: Everybody's a little different, and I had to learn again, the hard way probably

00:20:44: made a lot of mistakes, about how to meet people where they are a little

00:20:48: bit more and mentor them up if they were, that's what they wanted to do.

00:20:53: And learn more about where they were, what they wanted to do, and where they,

00:20:58: how they fit into the company and to make them successful in their own journey.

00:21:03: 'Cause you need that.

00:21:04: Everybody, that works at the company has a different role and has different

00:21:10: personal situations and and so those things are important, we're not, they're

00:21:14: not just numbers working at a desk.

00:21:17: There are people that, you know, and everybody's different.

00:21:21: And so I think we've gone a long way in our company in recognizing that and

00:21:25: working with people and trying to help them get to wherever they want to get

00:21:31: in their career, which is, everybody's a little bit unique in that way.

00:21:35: And I think recognizing that is very important.

00:21:38: It's very important and it's so fascinating me working as a leadership

00:21:41: coach, it's so fascinating how some people really have not recognized that

00:21:49: when they start working with me they think their way of thinking is what

00:21:52: everyone is doing, and their way of seeing the world is what everyone is doing.

00:21:58: So it's interesting that you're saying that you had that same experience there.

00:22:02: Now you have a long term leadership experience and I think we have seen

00:22:08: leadership evolve quite a bit over the last 40 years and 30 years.

00:22:14: Yes.

00:22:14: So where are you seeing the development in the next, let's say, decade?

00:22:19: What are you seeing there?

00:22:21: What is changing?

00:22:23: Technology is always changing, right?

00:22:25: So technology changes everybody's business.

00:22:28: All the time.

00:22:29: And so that has been a big, one of the big drivers, along with obviously

00:22:35: sociological and societal changes.

00:22:37: Technology is always a, an important aspect.

00:22:40: And I think that in our business, technology, it is critical that

00:22:45: the company keep adapting and keep anticipating changes in, in

00:22:49: technology and encouraging our people to stay abreast of these things

00:22:54: and stay ahead of these things.

00:22:56: So that changes how we work, it changes our productivity, it

00:23:01: changes our workflow and how our people have to interact together.

00:23:07: So I think and it's accelerating obviously with AI, AI is, affecting

00:23:11: everything now including our business.

00:23:14: I think just maintaining an attitude of you have to always

00:23:18: be evolving as a company.

00:23:20: And, that goes for leadership, leadership has to continue to evolve to understand

00:23:28: the next generation, every generation coming up is a little different, right?

00:23:32: And I think, we have a multi generational workforce.

00:23:35: Now, maybe more than ever, we have so many generations still in the

00:23:40: workforce, all at the same time.

00:23:41: And each one of them is a little different in their approach and their attitudes

00:23:47: and their desires and their motivations.

00:23:49: And so I think it's really important that leaders are aware and responsive to

00:23:57: these differences in the workforce.

00:24:00: And so that's, to me it's being creative and you have to be creative

00:24:04: to keep up with all this stuff.

00:24:05: And I think that's important, an important aspect that creativity and leadership

00:24:09: is gonna become, if anything, even more important than it is right now.

00:24:14: And that's why I'm so big on it.

00:24:16: Creativity and leadership is, I think, critical for anyone going forward.

00:24:21: Yeah.

00:24:24: That's a great way of ending a conversation, I would say.

00:24:28: Okay.

00:24:29: That's wonderful.

00:24:30: Thank you so much for your insight.

00:24:32: So where can people find out more about you, I guess your book,

00:24:38: of course, layered leadership.

00:24:40: Yeah, so Layered Leadership is available everywhere, online,

00:24:44: Amazon, Barnes and Noble, everywhere.

00:24:47: You can also check out my website.

00:24:50: Layeredleadershipbook.com.

00:24:52: I have blogs on there and testimonials and different, all my interviews are

00:24:58: up there as well and all that stuff.

00:25:00: Yeah.

00:25:01: So I would suggest that those two things and yeah.

00:25:05: Great.

00:25:06: Thank you.

00:25:06: And stay creative.

00:25:09: Yes.

00:25:10: Thank you so much.

00:25:10: I appreciate it.

00:25:11: Thanks.

00:25:12: Thank you.

00:25:13: Thanks, Larry.

00:25:13: You're welcome.

00:25:15: This was Lead Well!

00:25:16: Now what is the one thing that you're taking away from this episode?

00:25:20: Please share in the comments below and do share the podcast with your friends

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